Are JSA signing on times legitimate?

I’m on JSA, and years ago (from 1983 to 1991) on signing on days I could just go to the jobcentre any time of the day I liked to sign on. Now, obviously, I’m given a specific time to sign on. This varies from fortnight to fortnight, and can be anytime between jobcentre opening and closing hours.

One time I was around 30 minutes late to sign on, and when I did, I never mentioned I was late, and the particular roach (being on JSA I see different randomly appointed roaches each time I sign on) didn’t question me as to why. Last year, one roach told me when I asked her if I could come in earlier than the signing on time she’d just given me for my next signing on day, that I could, and that the times don’t matter—after she said the last part “that the times don’t matter”, I sensed from her that she wasn’t meant to say that, and that it had slipped out.

This got me thinking that perhaps the times you are given to sign on are “bogus”, in that they are just randomly selected from roaches’ minds the moment they give them to you, and not essential to the efficient running of the jobcentre. If signing on times were essential, then why did they not exist in the years I signed on from 1983 to 1991?

Maybe specific signing on times are just given to us to inconvenience us (especially if the time is very early in the day) and to make us think that the jobcentre has power over how we schedule the days we sign on.

I’m due to sign on tomorrow, and as a test I’ll sign on an hour late, and not mention to the randomly selected roach I will see, that I should have signed on earlier, and see what happens.

Be careful, you don't want to attract any trouble (a sanction / claim closure).

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/843582/dmgch20.pdf

Notice to participate in an interview
20911 If the Emp O gives or sends a notification to a claimant, including each member of a joint claim couple, to tell them to participate in an interview at a particular place at a particular day and time, the claimant has to do so1. This notification can be in writing, by telephone or by electronic means. An Emp O is any officer who acts on behalf of the Secretary of State2. The legislation allows other people to be authorized as Emp Os3. Appendix 4 gives details of the people the Secretary of State has authorized as Emp Os in relation to attendance 1 JS Act 95, s 8(1)(a); JSA Regs, reg 23 & 23A; 2 JS Act 95 s 8(3); JSA Regs, reg 4; 3 s 19(10)(a) & 20A(9)

Fails to participate, or participates late
20956 Where claimants have failed to participate, or participated late having been given a warning and failed to make contact with an Emp O within 5 working days (see DMG 20919 1. and 2.), entitlement ends on the earlier of
1.the day after the last day for which claimants have provided information or evidence that shows that they continue to be entitled to JSA1 and
2.the day claimants were required to attend2. But entitlement will not end earlier than the day after the day on which claimants last participated on time and on the correct day in accordance with a notice3, as long as that day falls before the date of the failure to participate or late participation. 1 JSA Regs, reg 26(a); R(JSA) 6/03; 2 reg 26(b); 3 reg 26

You have to be given a warning before any action is taken.

Given what has happened to members here, I wouldn't push your luck Archangel.

Thanks, but I don't think those quotes could apply to routine JSA sign on times. I hope I'm correct for my sake.

Archangel wrote:Thanks, but I don't think those quotes could apply to routine JSA sign on times. I hope I'm correct for my sake.

I am afraid they do A.

Caker wrote:Be careful, you don't want to attract any trouble (a sanction / claim closure).

I don’t know if they can sanction you for being an hour late. Especially if you apologise if they point it out, and have a good reason—fictional or otherwise. I have been late a few times by more than 10 minutes in the past, and they never said anything. They were more concerned with seeing my jobsearch evidence.

I think those stories about people being sanctioned because they were late due to going to a funeral are probably mythical.

Maybe if you were a day late, and had no reason to be, they might sanction you, but I don’t think you would lose an appeal if they sanctioned you for being an hour late.

Welfare-Champion wrote:

Archangel wrote:Thanks, but I don't think those quotes could apply to routine JSA sign on times. I hope I'm correct for my sake.

I am afraid they do A.

I hope you are wrong.

As I said, I've been late to sign on many times.

Archangel wrote:

Welfare-Champion wrote:

Archangel wrote:Thanks, but I don't think those quotes could apply to routine JSA sign on times. I hope I'm correct for my sake.

I am afraid they do A.

I hope you are wrong.

As I said, I've been late to sign on many times.

I am not wrong. The regulations are quoted above.

I imagine your Jobcentre is under pressure and they don't have the time to do things correctly, but things can change. I also think you're probably a canny claimant  , so they leave you alone.

Welfare-Champion wrote:https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/843582/dmgch20.pdf

Notice to participate in an interview
20911 If the Emp O gives or sends a notification to a claimant, including each member of a joint claim couple, to tell them to participate in an interview at a particular place at a particular day and time, the claimant has to do so1. This notification can be in writing, by telephone or by electronic means. An Emp O is any officer who acts on behalf of the Secretary of State2. The legislation allows other people to be authorized as Emp Os3. Appendix 4 gives details of the people the Secretary of State has authorized as Emp Os in relation to attendance 1 JS Act 95, s 8(1)(a); JSA Regs, reg 23 & 23A; 2 JS Act 95 s 8(3); JSA Regs, reg 4; 3 s 19(10)(a) & 20A(9)

Fails to participate, or participates late
20956 Where claimants have failed to participate, or participated late having been given a warning and failed to make contact with an Emp O within 5 working days (see DMG 20919 1. and 2.), entitlement ends on the earlier of
1.the day after the last day for which claimants have provided information or evidence that shows that they continue to be entitled to JSA1 and
2.the day claimants were required to attend2. But entitlement will not end earlier than the day after the day on which claimants last participated on time and on the correct day in accordance with a notice3, as long as that day falls before the date of the failure to participate or late participation. 1 JSA Regs, reg 26(a); R(JSA) 6/03; 2 reg 26(b); 3 reg 26

You have to be given a warning before any action is taken.

Given what has happened to members here, I wouldn't push your luck Archangel.

I just found the following two examples illustrating the rules you posted. But they don’t apply to being an hour late, only to not turning up at all.

Example 1

Sally Crosby was required to go to Littlehampton Jobcentre Plus office every other
Thursday at 10.30am to sign a declaration.

She participates on Thursday 6 March at the correct time and signs a declaration
confirming that she has been ASE and available and that her circumstances have
not changed since the last time she signed such a declaration.

Sally does not go to the Jobcentre Plus office on Thursday 20 March, and does not
contact them again.

On Friday 28 March the DM considers ending entitlement (by this date Sally cannot
show good reason within the necessary time).

The DM supersedes the award of JSA because there has been a relevant change of
circumstances (i.e. she has failed to participate without good reason).

Example 2

John Still is required to go to Littlehampton Jobcentre Plus office every other
Thursday at 10.30am to sign a declaration.

He participates on Thursday 6 March at the correct time and signs a declaration
confirming that he has been ASE and available and this his circumstances have not
changed since the last time he signed such a declaration.

John does not go to the Jobcentre Plus office on Thursday 20 March, but sends in
booklet ES40 that he no longer wishes to claim from Monday 17 March, but giving
no reason or explanation for this. The ES40 also confirms that he has been
available and ASE and his circumstances have not changed for the period Friday 7
March to Sunday 16 March inclusive.

On Friday 28 March the DM considers ending entitlement (by this date John cannot
show good reason within the necessary time).

The DM supersedes the award of JSA because there has been a relevant change of
circumstances (i.e. he has failed to participate without good reason).

Welfare-Champion wrote:

Archangel wrote:

Welfare-Champion wrote:

Archangel wrote:Thanks, but I don't think those quotes could apply to routine JSA sign on times. I hope I'm correct for my sake.

I am afraid they do A.

I hope you are wrong.

As I said, I've been late to sign on many times.

I am not wrong. The regulations are quoted above.

I imagine your Jobcentre is under pressure and they don't have the time to do things correctly, but things can change. I also think you're probably a canny claimant  , so they leave you alone.

Maybe I've just been lucky. I don't think they see me as being canny. I always act subservient when I go there, and don't "demand my rights" like some people do. I am always polite, though, which helps.

Archangel wrote:

Welfare-Champion wrote:https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/843582/dmgch20.pdf

Notice to participate in an interview
20911 If the Emp O gives or sends a notification to a claimant, including each member of a joint claim couple, to tell them to participate in an interview at a particular place at a particular day and time, the claimant has to do so1. This notification can be in writing, by telephone or by electronic means. An Emp O is any officer who acts on behalf of the Secretary of State2. The legislation allows other people to be authorized as Emp Os3. Appendix 4 gives details of the people the Secretary of State has authorized as Emp Os in relation to attendance 1 JS Act 95, s 8(1)(a); JSA Regs, reg 23 & 23A; 2 JS Act 95 s 8(3); JSA Regs, reg 4; 3 s 19(10)(a) & 20A(9)

Fails to participate, or participates late
20956 Where claimants have failed to participate, or participated late having been given a warning and failed to make contact with an Emp O within 5 working days (see DMG 20919 1. and 2.), entitlement ends on the earlier of
1.the day after the last day for which claimants have provided information or evidence that shows that they continue to be entitled to JSA1 and
2.the day claimants were required to attend2. But entitlement will not end earlier than the day after the day on which claimants last participated on time and on the correct day in accordance with a notice3, as long as that day falls before the date of the failure to participate or late participation. 1 JSA Regs, reg 26(a); R(JSA) 6/03; 2 reg 26(b); 3 reg 26

You have to be given a warning before any action is taken.

Given what has happened to members here, I wouldn't push your luck Archangel.

I just found the following two examples illustrating the rules you posted. But they don’t apply to being an hour late, only to not turning up at all.

Example 1

Sally Crosby was required to go to Littlehampton Jobcentre Plus office every other
Thursday at 10.30am to sign a declaration.

She participates on Thursday 6 March at the correct time and signs a declaration
confirming that she has been ASE and available and that her circumstances have
not changed since the last time she signed such a declaration.

Sally does not go to the Jobcentre Plus office on Thursday 20 March, and does not
contact them again.

On Friday 28 March the DM considers ending entitlement (by this date Sally cannot
show good reason within the necessary time).

The DM supersedes the award of JSA because there has been a relevant change of
circumstances (i.e. she has failed to participate without good reason).

Example 2

John Still is required to go to Littlehampton Jobcentre Plus office every other
Thursday at 10.30am to sign a declaration.

He participates on Thursday 6 March at the correct time and signs a declaration
confirming that he has been ASE and available and this his circumstances have not
changed since the last time he signed such a declaration.

John does not go to the Jobcentre Plus office on Thursday 20 March, but sends in
booklet ES40 that he no longer wishes to claim from Monday 17 March, but giving
no reason or explanation for this. The ES40 also confirms that he has been
available and ASE and his circumstances have not changed for the period Friday 7
March to Sunday 16 March inclusive.

On Friday 28 March the DM considers ending entitlement (by this date John cannot
show good reason within the necessary time).

The DM supersedes the award of JSA because there has been a relevant change of
circumstances (i.e. he has failed to participate without good reason).

They haven't quoted a signing late example, but the regulations clearly state your benefit can be affected if you fail to attend on time AFTER you've given a written warning.

People are being sanctioned wrongly for being a few mins late. You can find such stories on the net.

https://thepoorsideof.life/2017/03/23/1824/

As I said, I will test them, and see what happens, and report back here.

As you say, they need to give you an advance written warning before they can punish you. I'll mention that if they try to sanction me tomorrow for being an hour late.

Archangel wrote:As I said, I will test them, and see what happens, and report back here.

As you say, they need to give you an advance written warning before they can punish you. I'll mention that if they try to sanction me tomorrow for being an hour late.

You are now armed with helpful information.  

Take care!

Edit:  A sanction does not lead to claim closure, so you wouldn't be migrated to UC.

A useful letter: https://respectfulbenefits.forumotion.com/t27-failure-to-attend-a-jobcentre-meeting-appointment-on-time

simple answer its to cause you a headache every 2 weeks when you sign on

they are also trying to catch you out working on the side

and the main one is to cause problems for you with different times

also note they can refus eto sign you on that day and then have to in on another day instead for being late then you have a form to fill in saying why you couldnt sign on at the required time and day which then goes to be reviewed if not good enough

they can refuse to pay you for a days benefit payment and stamps

best not to be late and be on time all the time saves hassle in the end

I wish you best of luck Archangel.

However this is not a battle I would choose to have against the Jobcentre.

It's worth fighting against incorrect referrals, work placements or pointless courses. Being able to be late an hour or so for an appointment doesn't really give you a real benefit. You still have to attend, but now with maybe a more irritated work coach.

Remember, you might be messing with their work schedules if you are often late. I had a work coach once being annoyed they had to miss part of their lunch break because of someone was late. I rather see a chatty and happy work coach than a grumpy one!

Thanks Welfare Champion, Admin and Jara.

I’m just back from the JCP. I signed on 30 minutes late instead of an hour, as in the morning I got a reminder text from them telling me to sign on at 11.15 am. So I thought with getting that, 1 hour lateness might be pushing it, as I couldn’t then use the excuse that I forgot the time to sign on, or that I got it confused with another time I thought they’d given me.

Thankfully, the roach I saw today didn’t mention my lateness, or even look at my job search evidence. He seemed in a rush to sign me in and do other things. Most of the roaches I’ve seen since around December have been like that. Don’t know if it’s due to some policy shift requiring emphasis for hassling to be put on to UC claimants. It gives me more of an incentive to stay on JSA and not go on UC, should I be given the choice to.

Maybe a few people on this forum could also be about 15 to 30 minutes late signing on, if they are on JSA that is. I wouldn't suggest UC claimants be late for their infrequent roach meetings, as that won't be overlooked, I'm sure.  The feedback from them would give us more information as to whether JSA signing on times are more like “suggestions” than laws.

Archangel wrote:Thanks Welfare Champion, Admin and Jara.

I’m just back from the JCP. I signed on 30 minutes late instead of an hour, as in the morning I got a reminder text from them telling me to sign on at 11.15 am. So I thought with getting that, 1 hour lateness might be pushing it, as I couldn’t then use the excuse that I forgot the time to sign on, or that I got it confused with another time I thought they’d given me.

Thankfully, the roach I saw today didn’t mention my lateness, or even look at my job search evidence. He seemed in a rush to sign me in and do other things. Most of the roaches I’ve seen since around December have been like that. Don’t know if it’s due to some policy shift requiring emphasis for hassling to be put on to UC claimants. It gives me more of an incentive to stay on JSA and not go on UC, should I be given the choice to.

Maybe a few people on this forum could also be about 15 to 30 minutes late signing on, if they are on JSA that is. I wouldn't suggest UC claimants be late for their infrequent roach meetings, as that won't be overlooked, I'm sure.  The feedback from them would give us more information as to whether JSA signing on times are more like “suggestions” than laws.

Thanks for the update A. :-)

Migration to UC has now been extended to 2024.  In the circumstances, I think some Jobentres will be seeking unlawful practices to transfer JSA claimants to UC earlier than expected.  Lucy's case is good example :-(

All JSA/old style ESA members need to be on guard!

My hope is that the delayed migration will be yet another “kicking of the ball into the long grass”, and that in 2024 it will be delayed further, until the DWP/Tories can think of a face-saving way to scrap it.  

If UC had any realistic chance of working, it would have been rolled out nationally by now.

I can't remember what the form number is but when you're late the first time they're supposed to issue it to you because that has all the legal wording and warnings of what will happen if you're late again. But, personally, I wouldn't do anything that has even the slightest chance of getting you forcibly migrated to UC. That's just madness!

ABC wrote:I can't remember what the form number is but when you're late the first time they're supposed to issue it to you because that has all the legal wording and warnings of what will happen if you're late again. But, personally, I wouldn't do anything that has even the slightest chance of getting you forcibly migrated to UC. That's just madness!

Indeed ABC.

I hope no-one is issued with the ES19 form/JCP19.

Annex 1 Claimant attends on the correct day but at the wrong time
1.  When a claimant attends on the correct day, but either early or late, record on form ES589 or on LMS ‘Conversations’ the times of attendance, and their reasons for attending outside their specified time.  
2.  The claimant may be referred to an adviser to:     discuss their reasons for early/late attendance;     explain the implications of not attending at the correct time; and     either discuss alternative fortnightly attendance arrangementsor issue an ES19 warning letter.
3.  Make a note of the referral and outcome of the adviser discussion on LMS ‘Conversations’ or on form ES589.

Further information here:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/549890/FOI.1829._pub_summary_template.pdf

Archangel wrote:Maybe a few people on this forum could also be about 15 to 30 minutes late signing on, if they are on JSA that is. I wouldn't suggest UC claimants be late for their infrequent roach meetings, as that won't be overlooked, I'm sure.  The feedback from them would give us more information as to whether JSA signing on times are more like “suggestions” than laws.

As others have said, many a time you can resist the system by any means possible, but being purposely late for an appointment I find rather daft! I remember at my previous JCP, any claimant that was late they were told to come back at the end of the day to be seen, after they'd finished all appointments. Now that would be a total pain in the backside if you lived some distance from the JCP and your initial appointment was in the morning!

One good thing since I've been on UC is that my WC always asks me what time would suit me for the next appointment at their office. I like to get this crap over with ASAP so always arrange the earliest time possible.

All I can say is that I have been lucky, so far.

what ive stated is correct as ive had them myself

been sent away until next day form filled in
late for an appointment often form filled in
not often but did get chance to sign on same day but later on

ive had extenuating circumstances with that

just warning you its really not worth it

You are right. I won't do it again, if I don't have to. I was just curious about what they would do if I was late.