Re: What is a 35 Hours Jobsearch?

by Non Deficere Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:00 pm

Exactly, Caker!

Job/work search effort will vary from claimant to claimant based on multiple and variable circumstances every week.

The reasonableness bar is set by the work coach/Tribunal!

Regrettably, the questions asked at the doubt stage are insufficient to establish if the job/worksearch is reasoanble in those circumtances that prevailed at the relevant time.

IMO, I think it's near impossible to address every variable for each individual CC.

If claimants account for every activity/or action and take professional advice this would help to eliminate the majority of sanctions.

https://advicelocal.uk/

by Committed Claimant Tue Apr 23, 2019 3:11 pm

Caker wrote:

So this looks to me like it is says that a claimant cannot be expected to spend more than 35 hours per week upon job seeking activity since 35 hours represents the threshold of the expected number of hours and no claimant can be expected to exceed that threshold. However, the rule can be considered satisfied even if the claimant did all that was reasonable, in fewer than 35 hours per week.

Which rule would you consider satisfied in this instance?

Would you consider the list of activities in your CC, agreed between yourself and your coach and accepted by you, reasonable in your circumstances?

If not, who’s definition of ‘reasonable in your circumstances’ would you accept?

If you are satisfied with the rule you quote, and find your CC reasonable in your circumstances, would any reference to 35 hours per week job seeking be necessary at all?

Non Deficere:

What you are basically saying here is that there could be as many variations of Claimant Commitments as there are claimants. If we accept this then it follows that the reasonableness bar of a CC has to be agreed in the first instance between the individual claimant and his/her coach.

I’ve already suggested a response to a new coach who may have a different view of ‘reasonableness’.

by Caker Tue Apr 23, 2019 3:59 pm

@CC
The 'rule', and perhaps that is the wrong word for me to use, is that the claimant has 'done all that is reasonable' (whatever reasonable is) to be considered actively seeking employment in the period under consideration. That is all that I meant.

I certainly am not being definitive, in any sense, because 'reasonable' is a subjective word. What is 'reasonable' to one party may not be to another; you are quite right when you suggest that the reasonableness bar is to be found in the cc. This brings the argument back to square one in terms of whether 35 hours of activity can reasonably be included in a cc. confused

DATA REMOVED FOR SECURITY What is a 35 Hours Jobsearch? - Page 2 2109603344

by Caker Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:22 pm

I have moved this thread to the LAW section because it seems more of a debate about an interpretation of a law.

by Caker Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:45 pm

Non Deficere wrote:
......

If claimants account for every activity/or action and take professional advice this would help to eliminate the majority of sanctions.

I think that is the safest way to proceed, if unsure.

by Committed Claimant Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:51 pm

Caker wrote: This brings the argument back to square one in terms of whether 35 hours of activity can reasonably be included in a cc.

Exactly the contentious point we began with.

We have examined the point from several angles now and I maintain my initial proposition that the inclusion of ‘35 hours job search’ in one’s CC is neither reasonable nor a legal requirement.

Your CC could not be more lax from the point of view of having to provide hard evidence.

No. 1 could not reasonably be achieved especially if you live in a large city or suburban area where there could be thousands of jobs available that are not always advertised or you haven’t heard of. You could not show evidence that you had applied for ‘all jobs that I am capable of doing’ and no coach could prove that you had not without contacting every employer within a 90 minute bus journey radius in all directions.

by MrFrankZola Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:44 am

Hi Committed Claimant,

You raise good points, what does your Claimant Commitment say?
Have all references to 35 hours been removed and what are the work steps 'agreed and accepted'? Are you on UC?
(understand if you do not wish to share this info)

What do you think of the online UC account commitments form, that a new claimant is asked to complete before their first 'coach' meeting, which asks:

"Can you spend 35 hours a week looking for work?

Yes No"
(for a UC claimant in the 'all work requirements group'

What do you think of the Decision Maker guidance 'Chapter J3: Work-related requirements' and its
"The work search requirement "?
And the claimant examples shown?
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/793847/admj3.pdf
Which J3 cites:

17 Work search requirement

(1) In this Part a “work search requirement” is a requirement that a claimant take—

(a) all reasonable action, and

(b) any particular action specified by the Secretary of State,

for the purpose of obtaining paid work (or more paid work or better-paid work).

(2) The Secretary of State may under subsection (1)(b) specify the time to be devoted to any particular action.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/5/section/17/enacted

Has anyone ever seen a specific action in a CC that "specify the time to be devoted" to it and a number of
actions with time being "devoted" to each, that when added together became 35 hours?
(for a claimant in the 'all work requirements group')

ND said

"The only reasonable action a claimant can take is the steps within their UCCC/JSACC, or better steps (with reasons)."

"IMO, it is very important to account for the time you spend searching, researching, planning and preparing for those jobs that give you the best prospect of securing employment. "
https://respectfulbenefits.forumotion.com/t3601-what-is-a-35-hours-jobsearch#9760
Some similarity to https://respectfulbenefits.forumotion.com/t3601-what-is-a-35-hours-jobsearch#9769

What I am not sure about is how to record "time you spend" (per NDs comment) when a claimant commitment states:

"I'll normally spend 35 hours a week looking and preparing for work"

Should the time accounted for equal 35? When the claimant is in the 'all work requirements group'? And the claimant has had no mitigating circumstances for each week over a month (assessment period) that means a deduction from the 35 hours expectation is not available?

If a 'coach' is not provided with a copy of the claimants work search record, how would that effect 'coach' referral to a decision maker for any 'doubt'? Does the claimant have an advantage by not giving the 'coach' a copy and or not submitting a copy via the UC journal?

My starting point would always be to look at what the actual steps that are 'agreed' and 'accepted' in the CC. If there was no
reference to time in a CC how does a claimant know when "all reasonable action" and "any particular action" is completed and how would a claimant know what is or is not reasonable for them to agree to in their CC when there is no reference to time?

What does the Upper Tribunal ruling 'RR v Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (UC): [2017] UKUT 459 (AAC)'
https://www.gov.uk/administrative-appeals-tribunal-decisions/rr-v-secretary-of-state-for-work-and-pensions-uc-2017-ukut-459-aac have to say about the validity of the 35 hour expectation?

by MrFrankZola Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:09 pm

Committed Claimant wrote:
Caker wrote: This brings the argument back to square one in terms of whether 35 hours of activity can reasonably be included in a cc.

Exactly the contentious point we began with.

We have examined the point from several angles now and I maintain my initial proposition that the inclusion of ‘35 hours job search’ in one’s CC is neither reasonable nor a legal requirement.

Your CC could not be more lax from the point of view of having to provide hard evidence.

No. 1 could not reasonably be achieved especially if you live in a large city or suburban area where there could be thousands of jobs available that are not always advertised or you haven’t heard of. You could not show evidence that you had applied for ‘all jobs that I am capable of doing’ and no coach could prove that you had not without contacting every employer within a 90 minute bus journey radius in all directions.

Often CC actions like apply for '‘all jobs that I am capable of doing’ can be absurd. (within a 35 hour week?) So often it is very easy to challenge the actions listed in a CC because what has been 'agreed' and 'accepted' lacks logic and therefore in the event of a challenge to a sanction decision this can be pointed out. What if CCs became so well worded ('agreed' and 'accepted') in terms of actions they became a rope to hang oneself?

SSAC is researching CCs and will interesting to see submissions and the outcome and recommendations that come forward .

"The focus of this research is on claimants in the all-work related activity conditionality group, including those with potential restrictions on their work abilities but are still deemed to be suitable for this conditionality group. For example, people with caring responsibilities or a disability.

The all-work related activity conditionality group means a claimant must do all they can to find a job or earn more, which includes looking for jobs, applying for jobs and going to interviews. This research does not cover claimants in the remaining 3 conditionality groups:

no work-related requirement
work-focused interview group
the work preparation group1"
https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/claimant-commitment/call-for-evidence-on-the-claimant-commitment

Worth remembering that Claimant Commitment got designed and piloted by the Nudge Unit (https://www.bi.team/) and the 35 hour expectation looks like one very big nudge, that is not meant to be taken literally but one that is uncritically self-imposed or ruminated on. A significant nudge compared to the old UB40 'sign-on' action and the original JSA 2/3 steps a week.

by Caker Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:51 pm

I think that mine is the most absurd:

I will ask friends / family if they know of jobs in my sector . jocolor

There is absolutely no member of my family or friendship group who are in any way connected to my sector, so there is no way they would have any knowledge of such jobs unless these were advertised in the local free sheet.

If anyone has a more ridiculous thing to do then I would love to see it. What is a 35 Hours Jobsearch? - Page 2 3166904498

What is a 35 Hours Jobsearch? - Page 2 3166904498

by Committed Claimant Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:33 pm

Caker wrote:I think that mine is the most absurd:

I will ask friends / family if they know of jobs in my sector .

There is absolutely no member of my family or friendship group who are in any way connected to my sector, so there is no way they would have any knowledge of such jobs unless these were advertised in the local free sheet.

If anyone has a more ridiculous thing to do then I would love to see it.

You are in danger of being sanctioned unless you get some new friends acceptable to DWP and adopt another family sharpish.

That is no more absurd than telling you that you must spend 35 hours per week looking for work.

by Committed Claimant Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:39 pm

Mr Frank:

There is no reference to 35 hours for anything anywhere on my JSACC. When I began to negotiate the ‘agreement’ my coach had a template or sample of a JSACC up on her computer screen, her problem, not mine. It took me a while to get her to grasp that I was there to negotiate my agreement ‘reasonable for me in my circumstances’ not what the average Tom, Dick or Harry, between John o Groats and Lands End, or some flunky at the DWP considered appropriate or necessary to impose on me.

I accepted and agreed to be included instead:

“I will access (5 named employment agencies) as part of my job search. ”- Weekly

“I will apply for any suitable job that I find whilst undertaking the above”

I had a list (that I had prepared earlier) of 10 employment agencies that I was registered with (evidence of registration available on request to DM or Tribunal). She had not the room on the form to include all 10, to which I remarked that it was a poor to-do asking me to agree a list of job seeking activities and not providing the space on the requisite form to compile said list.

I have never seen an online UC account commitments form so I can’t comment on it. I have asked already if anyone could possibly post such a thing, that it might be helpful. If you have access to a copy it is remiss of you to comment on aspects of it and not to share it in its entirety.

At no place in the DM guidance you reference does it say, or even suggest, that I can or must;

‘…….spend 35 hours a week looking for work?'

I have made the case in preceding posts to define the law regarding this. Tribunals have used their interpretation of the law for several years now to make the same case, that the inclusion of 35 hours per week looking for work does not conform with what the law says is required or meant by job seeking activity.

“Has anyone ever seen a specific action in a CC that "specify the time to be devoted" to it and a number of actions with time being "devoted" to each, that when added together became 35 hours?”

I can’t speak for anyone else but I never have.

ND can answer for himself but I’m sure it would not be too difficult for him to explain to you how to record the time spent on each activity and then tot it all up. Claimants who might be in the habit of fabricating everything else about their job seeking activities should find it relatively easy to tell you how to do simple arithmetic. Especially considering that coaches don’t study, or even read, most of it anyway.

I have not read the Tribunal case you mention. If it states categorically where in legislation it says that a claimant ‘Must spend 35 hours a week looking for work’ perhaps you might post the relevant bit.

by MrFrankZola Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:35 pm

Committed Claimant wrote:Mr Frank:

There is no reference to 35 hours for anything anywhere on my JSACC.

Thanks for update, very important to make a distinction between a UC CC and a JSA CC regards the 35 hour expectation, as there appears to be overlapping opinions on JSA and UC. I am only referring to UC in my earlier posts.

by Caker Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:59 pm

Having now looked again at my UCcc, I have noticed that it does say 'I'll (sic) normally spend 35 hours a week looking and preparing for work'. That slipped in weeks ago, before we ever had this debate and when I thought it was a bona fide requirement.

So if I get pulled up on it, I would be relying upon the word 'normally' since I could argue that I 'normally' but not always etc,..........

I would presume that because the word 'normally' is there, that means that any DM would need to prove that I don't 'normally' spend 35 hours a week looking for and preparing for work.

Would I be right to presume that if it could not be proven that I don't 'normally' spend 35 hours then it is irrelevant that I did not spend 35 hours in any 'specific' week because it would need to be proven that I don't 'normally' spend 35 hours in any/most weeks? confused

The 'what i'll (sic) do' items, on my cc, would not take 35 hours of anyone's time and with only 6 hours of computer access What is a 35 Hours Jobsearch? - Page 2 3889284177

What is a 35 Hours Jobsearch? - Page 2 3889284177

, it is not as if I could spend more than that on filling in applications, tarting up my CV, looking at job sites, responding to recruiters via email etc).

by MrFrankZola Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:09 pm

Caker wrote:: 'I'll (sic) normally spend 35 hours a week looking and preparing for work'.

Easy to forget the ref to "preparing for work"

The Upper Tribunal ruling refers to "normally" not being "always" and highlights that a claimant could have good-reasons for not being able to meet the 35 hour expectation.

"Upper Tribunal case CUC/1808/2017 - 14 February 2017

In this case the domestic emergency was not taken into account amongst other things."
https://respectfulbenefits.forumotion.com/t3601-what-is-a-35-hours-jobsearch#9782

Caker: UC-CC "The 'what i'll (sic) do' items, on my cc, would not take 35 hours of anyone's time"

This is why it is very important to see precisely what actions are included in an actual UC-CC.

The

'I'll (sic) normally spend 35 hours a week looking and preparing for work'

Gives Caker's UC-CC more scope for more 'work search' and 'work preparation' actions to be added, (if reasonable) or they could focus on trying to get rid of all references to '35 hours' and accepting the consequences of doing so, or leave things as they are ('agreed' and 'accepted')?

by Caker Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:15 pm

That is quite useful Frank. I include job interviews (with travel) into the activity as they can take ages to prepare for but often I am notified of a job interview via 'phone so there is no proof that I have an interview / went to an interview. I wonder if that might be problematic. confused

I think I will leave the cc just as it is without asking for any revision at present, because they might want to make it more specific and overly prescriptive. Rolling Eyes

by MrFrankZola Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:34 pm

UC Work-related requirements

15.Work-focused interview requirement
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/5/part/1/chapter/2/crossheading/workrelated-requirements

16.Work preparation requirement
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/5/section/16

17.Work search requirement
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/5/section/17

18.Work availability requirement
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/5/section/18
>
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/5/contents

Regarding UC

Claimants subject to all [UC] work-related requirements
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/5/section/22

To confirm I am only referring to UC and as such would not expect any references to 35 hours being on a JSA-CC for search or prep.

by Non Deficere Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:56 pm

I think it has been established that the expected number of work search is usually 35 hours per week for Universal Credit claimants unless a deduction is made for people with particular circumstances as well as work preparation requirements.

“What does the Work Coach need to consider if the activities recorded on the Claimant Commitment are not taking up the required hours of work-related activity?

Scenario answer:“ If the activities recorded on the Claimant Commitment are not taking up the required hours of work related activity (e.g. 35 hours) but the claimant has carried out all activities listed on the Claimant Commitment (e.g. in 15 hours each week) the claimant cannot be referred to a Decision Maker as all the requirements on the Claimant commitment have been met. The Work Coach will need to set more appropriate activities”.

It is for the claimant to prove that they have taken all reasonable action to find paid work despite the actual number of hours spent being lower than the expected number of hours per week; and that action gives them the best prospects of obtaining work.

Based on experience a doubt regarding insufficient hours can arise when a doubt has been identified regard the number of jobs applied.

When there are many suitable jobs to apply for it only take a few minutes to upload a CV for some vacancies.

However, some vacancies can take several hours to apply for, therefore the number of applications will be less.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/456776/response/1101434/attach/3/150%20Response.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1

Interestingly, the SoS chooses not to specify the number of hours devoted to particular actions!

17Work search requirement

(1)In this Part a “work search requirement” is a requirement that a claimant take—

(a)all reasonable action, and

(b)any particular action specified by the Secretary of State,

for the purpose of obtaining paid work (or more paid work or better-paid work).

(2)The Secretary of State may under subsection (1)(b) specify the time to be devoted to any particular action

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/5/section/17/enacted

A work search diary which includes time, particularly for job applications would help to reduce the number of doubts and subsequent risk of a sanction.

https://respectfulbenefits.forumotion.com/t3621-my-work-search-diary-custom-template

Extract from a successful appeal...

The types of jobs that give me the best prospect of securing employment based on my experience, character, qualifications are, X and X. Applications for these types of jobs take more time , often several hours due to the research and preparation required. For example, I have already spent over 6 hours this week on an application for X, because no CV download was permitted. The same happened on X with a X vacancy.

by Caker Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:19 pm

Thanks ND.

That final paragraph definitely suits my situation.

by MrFrankZola Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:40 pm

Hi ND you say: "A work search diary which includes time, particularly for job applications would help to reduce the number of doubts and subsequent risk of a sanction."

So in the UC-CC example of Caker, how should they record the "time" it takes to undertake the CC requirements, noting they said:

"on my cc, would not take 35 hours of anyone's time"

and Caker's CC says:

'I'll (sic) normally spend 35 hours a week looking and preparing for work'.

If Caker does explicitly record the actual "time" taken, would that not result in a 'Coach' adding more actions, even though:

"the claimant cannot be referred to a Decision Maker as all the requirements on the Claimant commitment have been met."

and then

"The Work Coach will need to set more appropriate activities”.?

What if a diary merely said"

Between date x and date x I have completed and met all of my Claimant commitment requirements, which are shown below in my diary

xxx

Does any legislation state a claimant must record the date, clock time and time taken to undertake each specific CC actions/preparations and or the UC CC makes no references to such minutiae?

When suggesting claimants record "time", would be good to expand with examples of work search records, taking account of the 35 hour expectation.

As some may not find they can show 35 hours in:

"The types of jobs that give me the best prospect of securing employment based on my experience, character, qualifications are, X and X. Applications for these types of jobs take more time , often several hours due to the research and preparation required. For example, I have already spent over 6 hours this week on an application for X, because no CV download was permitted. The same happened on X with a X vacancy."

Whilst accepting UCCC requirements can be full met well under 35 hours, but once "time" is explicitly recorded covering says 2 weeks, or one month?

Of course one can get creative on how time is recorded, but what happens if a 'coach' refers a work search record to decision as they dispute the 'timings' recorded on a work search record, assuming the claimant gave them to a 'coach' or followed the practice of recording them on a UC journal so they (digital record held by the DWP) facilitates a fast-track evidence based referral to a decision maker by the 'coach'?

by Non Deficere Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:21 pm

MrFrankZola wrote:Hi ND you say: "A work search diary which includes time, particularly for job applications would help to reduce the number of doubts and subsequent risk of a sanction."

So in the UC-CC example of Caker, how should they record the "time" it takes to undertake the CC requirements, noting they said:

"on my cc, would not take 35 hours of anyone's time"

and Caker's CC says:

'I'll (sic) normally spend 35 hours a week looking and preparing for work'.

If Caker does explicitly record the actual "time" taken, would that not result in a 'Coach' adding more actions, even though:

"the claimant cannot be referred to a Decision Maker as all the requirements on the Claimant commitment have been met."

and then

"The Work Coach will need to set more appropriate activities”.?

The wc has agreed reasonable steps with Caker taking into account his/her cirucumsntances. There are only a limited number of ways to seek work so I doubt it.

What if a diary merely said"

Between date x and date x I have completed and met all of my Claimant commitment requirements, which are shown below in my diary

xxx

That is fine, providing the wc doesn't query few applications, when many exist.

Does any legislation state a claimant must record the date, clock time and time taken to undertake each specific CC actions/preparations and or the UC CC makes no references to such minutiae?

The regulations require that claimants provide information/ evidence. It doesn't specify time, but how else do you counter a doubt regarding insufficient jobs application for example? My aim is to prevent the risk of sanctions.

What

When suggesting claimants record "time", would be good to expand with examples of work search records, taking account of the 35 hour expectation.

As some may not find they can show 35 hours in:

"The types of jobs that give me the best prospect of securing employment based on my experience, character, qualifications are, X and X. Applications for these types of jobs take more time , often several hours due to the research and preparation required. For example, I have already spent over 6 hours this week on an application for X, because no CV download was permitted. The same happened on X with a X vacancy."

Whilst accepting UCCC requirements can be full met well under 35 hours, but once "time" is explicitly recorded covering says 2 weeks, or one month?

Of course one can get creative on how time is recorded, but what happens if a 'coach' refers a work search record to decision as they dispute the 'timings' recorded on a work search record, assuming the claimant gave them to a 'coach' or followed the practice of recording them on a UC journal so they (digital record held by the DWP) facilitates a fast-track evidence based referral to a decision maker by the 'coach'?

I have never come across that scenario and not sure how time could be disputed. Surely, the wc has assessed the time when agreeing "all reasonable actions/activity".

Insufficient job applications have been the reason for sanctions in the majority of appeals I have assisted with.

by Caker Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:28 pm

Just for the record, I don't provide any indication of times spent on activities. I just briefly document the activity with no indication of how long it took.

I definitely don't want further activities to do.

by MrFrankZola Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:51 pm

Caker wrote:Just for the record, I don't provide any indication of times spent on activities. I just briefly document the activity with no indication of how long it took.

I definitely don't want further activities to do.

Have never come across anyone recording actual time taken to undertake specific actions, but can see some merit in doing so if such did not become a further punitive rod for a claimant. So far never seen a UCCC that covers anything near 35 hours. Agree with ND, that many sanctions may relate to a lack of actual job applications

Regards "That is fine, providing the wc doesn't query few applications, when many exist." ND

I am not suggesting having a diary record that did not record all applications, that would seem a very odd idea.

ND, with regards

"Insufficient job applications have been the reason for sanctions in the majority of appeals I have assisted with.

Can you estimate how many ppeals related to a UCCC and on average how many (% estimate) had given a copy of their original work search records to a 'coach' via the UC Journal or in printed format that led to the sanction appeal and did they all fail a Mandatory Reconsideration? And on average what volume of applications did the 'coach' deem inadequate? Do you have any full synopsis of any UCCC appeals, so others can learn from them as you are suggesting many are not that unique as they contain broad lessons for claimants to avoid sanctions?

by Caker Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:05 pm

I usually record 3 applications each week. I understand there is no minimum number to meet ASE requirements, so I stick to what would have met the criteria under JSA. I also record 2 or 3 other activities just for good measure.

by MrFrankZola Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:18 pm

Caker wrote:I usually record 3 applications each week. I understand there is no minimum number to meet ASE requirements, so I stick to what would have met the criteria under JSA. I also record 2 or 3 other activities just for good measure.

Would not rely upon JSA conditionality as a basis to decide whether UCCC requirements/actions have been met.

by Committed Claimant Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:49 pm

Mr. F.

I was referring to all, JSA, JSACC and CC. I spelled out the legal position as regards each of them in foregoing posts.

If you disagree, fair enough, but please tell me why you disagree, not what you believe I should consider important, especially when I've already considered it.

I have made the distinction, several time, as you will see if you read the foregoing posts. I have also taken overlapping opinions into account, as well as guidance from DWP and various other oft quoted reputable sources, including by yourself, and Tribunal reports.

Everything else you wrote, as far as it applies to this specific issue, is subjective opinion and explanations presumably included to ease for the claimant the worst excesses of agreeing to do what s/he is not legally obliged to do in the first place.

I don’t know why you don’t post the copy of the UC CC that you use to quote from. It might help you to convince me how different it is if you can show me.

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