JSA Sanction and conversion to UC?

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Post by hasteyninja on Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:37 pm

You mean the sanction back in September or thereabouts? That was hellish i went 6 weeks or so without a payment because in 1 week of my 2 week job search i didn't do enough, which to be fair by the standard i set myself was true, but i wasn't given any guidance on how many steps you should take per week, when in that week which admittedly was an off week and was visiting my old man for most of it, i think had 2 things on my journal for that week and he sanctioned me on the spot. I didn't even ask for a mandatory reconsideration for that though, i thought that was necessary before you can appeal?

Again I'm showing my lack of understanding about all of this.

Good to know ABC.


Last edited by hasteyninja on Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:05 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Accuracy)

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Post by ABC on Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:05 pm

The legislation states:

  “… a person shall be expected to have to take more than two steps in any week
unless taking one or two steps is all that is reasonable for that person to do in that week.”

In other words it's three steps minimum unless you've got a good excuse. But it also has to pass the reasonableness test so if you could prove that it was unreasonable to do more than the two steps you said you did then that would get you off. Also it's possible that what you think were two steps were actually more but we'd need to know what you did to resolve that. ND will help anyway.
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Post by hasteyninja on Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:45 pm

Ah I see. I figured it wasn't worth appealing because honestly i didn't even realize i did so little that week until i put my evidence together, and as i said i was busy that week at my dad's out of town.

I was also naive and thought that the jobsearch would get considered as a 2 week whole and not on a week by week basis, so in that 2 week period the second week i had applied for around 6-7 jobs more alike my usual and it was only the first week i slacked where i only handed 2 CVs and spec letters into local places on different days. (I did check job sites that week but didn't record it since i had been told by that point he would NOT accept a no jobs suit scenario). He just photocopied the first page and sent it away and that was that. I will say in my defence that this was on the back of him complaining i was "applying for too many jobs" the meeting previously giving me shit for not getting an interview from any, so i distinctly remember making a conscious decision to not apply for as many, bear in mind my claim had only been open for a short while to this point and so I was still getting my bearings with the whole process.

Funny because i remember at the time when i said to him my claimant commitment doesn't state how many steps I'm to take when i was verbally disputing, he said that they "done away with all that" and that there was no longer a minimum amount, i guess that was bollocks then.

Regardless, i didn't hit the minimum 3 steps mark that you state so I don't expect to salvage anything, and any sour grapes have long been had since then, luckily i was able to survive monetarily by the skin of my teeth. Though i do wonder what constitutes a "step" and by who's definition, printing a CV for example could be regarded one, right? But alas he sent what i provided so ultimately i conceded that sanction, however it would set the tone of our meetings and would let me know how things are to be and what i was dealing with, and i haven't dropped my guard since, despite his best efforts as per my OP. I was last on JSA 7 years prior to this and it was a whole different ball game then.

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Post by Non Deficere on Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:49 pm

hasteyninja wrote:Ah I see. I figured it wasn't worth appealing because honestly i didn't even realize i did so little that week until i put my evidence together, and as i said i was busy that week at my dad's out of town.

I was also naive and thought that the jobsearch would get considered as a 2 week whole and not on a week by week basis, so in that 2 week period the second week i had applied for around 6-7 jobs more alike my usual and it was only the first week i slacked where i only handed 2 CVs and spec letters into local places on different days. (I did check job sites that week but didn't record it since i had been told by that point he would NOT accept a no jobs suit scenario). He just photocopied the first page and sent it away and that was that. I will say in my defence that this was on the back of him complaining i was "applying for too many jobs" the meeting previously giving me shit for not getting an interview from any, so i distinctly remember making a conscious decision to not apply for as many, bear in mind my claim had only been open for a short while to this point and so I was still getting my bearings with the whole process.

Funny because i remember at the time when i said to him my claimant commitment doesn't state how many steps I'm to take when i was verbally disputing, he said that they "done away with all that" and that there was no longer a minimum amount, i guess that was bollocks then.

Regardless, i didn't hit the minimum 3 steps mark that you state so I don't expect to salvage anything, and any sour grapes have long been had since then, luckily i was able to survive monetarily by the skin of my teeth. Though i do wonder what constitutes a "step" and by who's definition, printing a CV for example could be regarded one, right? But alas he sent what i provided so ultimately i conceded that sanction, however it would set the tone of our meetings and would let me know how things are to be and what i was dealing with, and i haven't dropped my guard since, despite his best efforts as per my OP. I was last on JSA 7 years prior to this and it was a whole different ball game then.

I think you have grounds for appealing.

You can be treated as available and actively seeking work to deal with a domestic emergency for up to a week.

It appears that the wc did not take a full statement from you, which is unjust and a breach of procedure.

You may find it easier discussing your case more fully with a local welfare agency in complete privacy.

Following a legal challenge you can now request a mandatory reconsideration outside DWP's unlawful time limit of one month.

Late Mandatory Reconsideration Scheme ruled unlawful:
https://gcnchambers.co.uk/late-mandatory-reconsideration-scheme-ruled-unlawful/

https://www.gov.uk/administrative-appeals-tribunal-decisions/r-cj-and-sg-v-secretary-of-state-for-work-and-pensions-esa-2017-ukut-324-aac
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Post by ABC on Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:11 am

hasteyninja wrote:Regardless, i didn't hit the minimum 3 steps mark that you state...

Oh, but you did! Very Happy

i only handed 2 CVs and spec letters into local places on different days. (I did check job sites that week but didn't record it

So that's 2 CVs and 2 spec letters (each slightly different for different jobs), 4 steps. Looking for jobs that week on however many websites and newspapers etc. you use, let's say four in total, that's 4 steps. So you're already up to 8 steps without much thinking.

Edit: And of course you will have done your job search for three or four or more days that week (how are they to know you didn't) so that's four steps each time, done four times, is 16 steps plus your CVs and spec letters that's 20 steps!


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Post by hasteyninja on Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:27 pm

Sincerest thanks to you all, with some amazing help I've submitted my MR and will just wait and see what the outcome is.

Regarding the topic of my OP, I received a benefit letter today telling me my JSA will be unpayable from the dates in question as I was deemed not actively seeking work, despite getting clarification on the phone that the result was in my favour, my benefit unaffected, and getting an issue of payment as a result. As well as clearing up any questionable claim status that was left on my account from all this with an apology on the phone.

So I guess the letter (which is dated before I made enquiries) is bogus and shouldn't affect anything. Such a joke how inaccurate and misinformed they are, I'm getting contradictions left and right.

To sum up, everything should be ok as of now, and I'm currently just awaiting the outcome of appeal for a previous sanction.

Cheers.

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Post by Non Deficere on Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:00 pm

hasteyninja wrote:Sincerest thanks to you all, with some amazing help I've submitted my MR and will just wait and see what the outcome is.

Regarding the topic of my OP, I received a benefit letter today telling me my JSA will be unpayable from the dates in question as I was deemed not actively seeking work, despite getting clarification on the phone that the result was in my favour, my benefit unaffected, and getting an issue of payment as a result. As well as clearing up any questionable claim status that was left on my account from all this with an apology on the phone.

So I guess the letter (which is dated before I made enquiries) is bogus and shouldn't affect anything. Such a joke how inaccurate and misinformed they are, I'm getting contradictions left and right.

To sum up, everything should be ok as of now, and I'm currently just awaiting the outcome of appeal for a previous sanction.

Cheers.

Hi hn,

Yes it is a mess, but the main thing is, you have received your payment and the second doubt was sorted.

All the best with your MR, if you need any further assitance please let me know.

N-D


Last edited by Non Deficere on Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by hasteyninja on Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:56 pm

Hi hn,

Yes it is a mess, but the main thing is, you have received you payment and the second doubt was sorted.

All the best with your MR, if you need any further assitance please let me know.

N-D


Thank you N-D, you are a hero!

Will keep you posted.

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Post by Non Deficere on Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:59 pm

Thanks hn. Very Happy Very Happy

I am certainly no hero, but I have assisted 100s if not 1000s of people including many people here and on other forums with benefit advice queries, complaints and Appeals.  

You mentioned that you were pointed to this site for help.  Can you say any more? No worries if you can't.
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Post by hasteyninja on Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:01 pm

You mentioned that you were pointed to this site for help. Can you say any more? No worries if you can't.


Occasionally i would browse the Welfare Central website and try and find situations like mine since I've been having a super hard time of it on jsa and just seeking info to help me. Its the only place i knew of or that i could find from search engines for whatever reason that i found discussion of such things.

I tried to register there a few times but i never got confirmation from moderators ever, i was desperate to talk to someone. Fom there I stumbled onto Frank Zola's blog (presumably people will be familiar with him here), i found good information there about certain things you can't be mandated for, and he had some interesting FoI requests, basically to equip myself incase i find myself facing any more harsh sanction referrals to know what's lawful etc. From there i emailed him with a few questions as i was really desperate for some advice, mentioned i couldn't register on Welfare Central and he kindly referred me here and a couple other sites.

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Post by Admin on Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:54 am

thankyou for letting us know hasteyninja

frank zola is here and very welcome here as we all fight together against the system
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Post by Non Deficere on Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:32 am

hasteyninja wrote:
You mentioned that you were pointed to this site for help.  Can you say any more? No worries if you can't.


Occasionally i would browse the Welfare Central website and try and find situations like mine since I've been having a super hard time of it on jsa and just seeking info to help me. Its the only place i knew of or that i could find from search engines for whatever reason that i found discussion of such things.

I tried to register there a few times but i never got confirmation from moderators ever, i was desperate to talk to someone. Fom there I stumbled onto Frank Zola's blog (presumably people will be familiar with him here), i found good information there about certain things you can't be mandated for, and he had some interesting FoI requests, basically to equip myself incase i find myself facing any more harsh sanction referrals to know what's lawful etc. From there i emailed him with a few questions as i was really desperate for some advice, mentioned i couldn't register on Welfare Central and he kindly referred me here and a couple other sites.

JSA Sanction and conversion to UC? - Page 2 2035158131

It looks as though Frank is winding down, his twitter account has moved.

The WC site seems a good place for discussion.

I am pleased you found us. Very Happy   Not as much chat here, but hopefully the information assists many people.
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Post by hasteyninja on Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:45 pm

Hey everyone, great news!

Not only has the sanction referral been dealt with regarding my original post,

With the assistance of Non Deficere I submitted my mandatory reconsideration notice for a sanction that took place back in October, which has now been revised in my favour! I haven't had a letter yet but I have received a payment for the weeks I was sanctioned for. I think N-D said it was his fastest case yet with the decision going in favour of claimant!

To everyone that chipped in, thanks to all, I couldn't have begun to think how much this site would help me, not only with the topic at hand but to help me with a previous decision has been incredible and so I'm forever grateful.

I'll continue to share my story as it unfolds and hope that it can help other people in similar spots. I am going to submit my SAR next and if my adviser continues to relentlessly berate me I will be submitting a complaint ASAP.

Have a great weekend guys.

cheers cheers cheers

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Post by Non Deficere on Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:00 pm

JSA Sanction and conversion to UC? - Page 2 2936143587

You too!

Great news! Thanks for sharing HN!
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Post by Caker on Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:16 pm

Brilliant news H. and well done ND.
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Post by Non Deficere on Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:23 pm

Caker wrote:Brilliant news H. and well done ND.

Appreciated Caker! Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

I am incredibly surprised how quickly DWP responded.  It is definitely a first for me!  A favourable decison within 24 hours!

lol!
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Post by hasteyninja on Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:34 pm

Thanks Caker!

/Hidden

Excuse the venting, it's been a journey to this point.  Laughing

/Rant


Last edited by hasteyninja on Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:03 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Privacy)

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Post by Non Deficere on Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:40 pm

I have seen this behaviour many times HN.  Sad

Digital Jobclubs are not mandatory, are you still being mandated to attend?

You/we can address all your concerns once you have your SAR.

I've pm'd you.
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Post by Admin on Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:28 pm

hasteyninja wrote:Hey everyone, great news!

Not only has the sanction referral been dealt with regarding my original post,

With the assistance of Non Deficere I submitted my mandatory reconsideration notice for a sanction that took place back in October, which has now been revised in my favour! I haven't had a letter yet but I have received a payment for the weeks I was sanctioned for. I think N-D said it was his fastest case yet with the decision going in favour of claimant!

To everyone that chipped in, thanks to all, I couldn't have begun to think how much this site would help me, not only with the topic at hand but to help me with a previous decision has been incredible and so I'm forever grateful.

Have a great weekend guys.

cheers cheers cheers

well done on fighting that one out and such a great result in the end

its people like you that made building this site worth it

im glad that you found us
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Post by hasteyninja on Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:57 pm

Thanks mate, the site and the people on it have been a class act.

Much appreciated.

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Post by oneman on Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:27 pm

Hi. hasteyninja.
Not sure how I missed this thread but I have been busy of late.

Great result for you. I'm in a similar situation but it's good to know you have had them both overturned.Very Happy
It sounds like your work roach is a nightmare and has a superiority complex.
One tip I would highly recommend if you are getting grief from your work roach is to secretly record you appointments then store them on your computer so they can be used in evidence if you need to go to court. It's amazing how many times they trip themselves up or blatantly tell lies. They have a code of conduct to follow and any maladministration can result in disciplinary action taken against them.
You will definitely see their arse twitch when they find out they have been recorded telling lies.

Regards
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Post by jobberpw on Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:01 pm

Hi hasteyninja,

go with a full detailed complaint if you can.And from my own experience, they haven't tried any dirty tricks since.

If you dont complain, what they usually do, is carry on but in a much more polite 'normal' manner for the next few appointments then revert back to their roachful selves.Be on guard Smile

One Man's tip on recording is a good one as this whole system cant be trusted.I also record them using a google app on my mobile at UC call centre.Playback is crystal clear and gives me a good chuckle when i catch them out.


Good luck

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Post by hasteyninja on Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:45 pm

Cheers guys, I actually have been doing this but haven't captured him at his worst, I either didn't have time to set up my app before being called or something else and I kick myself about it because he's come out with some incredible things that I didn't manage to capture and his general shocking demeanor, though I have got a few sessions. You're right - the most recent appointment was very different, he barely glanced at my jobsearch this time and I was done in 5 minutes, a first. He acted completely different with me. I know for sure he'll resume his ways so I am just waiting on SAR before I consider a full complaint, I'd prefer to avoid tribunals etc. if I can, but I do hope to get someone less awful to deal with if I successfully get a change of WC and not someone worse even if that's hard for me to imagine.

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Post by Non Deficere on Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:09 am

There are various dispute methods:

DWP complaints procedure:
http://respectfulbenefits.forumotion.com/t2149-sample-complaint-letter-and-relevant-guidance-information

Judicial Review:
Alternative remedies
Judicial review is only available when there are no alternative ways by which the dispute can be resolved. If, for example, there is an internal appeal or complaints procedure or a statutory right of appeal, these may be considered “alternative remedies” by the court. If an alternative remedy is available the court is likely to refuse to hear a judicial review application.

However, it is important to remember that an alternative remedy must be meaningful. If the alternative route by which the dispute could be resolved does not, for example, deliver a quick enough result or the decision made by the body/individual reviewing the decision is not binding, it is arguable that the alternative remedy is not appropriate and judicial review would be appropriate.  The question whether an alternative remedy precludes the availability of a judicial review application is not straightforward and it is best to seek expert advice from a lawyer specialising in public law before deciding whether to take legal action or not.

https://www.leighday.co.uk/Human-rights-abuse-claims-judicial-review/Further-insights/Judicial-review

County Court:
http://respectfulbenefits.forumotion.com/t3250-jsa-sanction-information-2-updates

If I had known about the 2 cases sooner, I would have suggested a a Judicial Review.  The procedure of secretly preparing and submitting evidence to the Decison Maker needs to be changed urgently.
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Post by Non Deficere on Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:07 am

Hi hasteyninja

We haven't heard from you in a while. Hope your wc is behaving themselves!
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