discussion uc cc references to a journal or journal removed from cc

by **Admin** Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:58 pm

Does anyone have a UC CC that does not include references to a Journal or have had a UC CC reviewed that included having the Journal reference removed?

So far not seen any DWP FOI reply or info a claimant could present to a 'coach' that says without any doubt that all references to a Journal can be excluded or removed from a CC, during creation of the first CC or at any later review. With risks of sanctions or more conditions, claimants often want info that does not require any or much reliance on interpretation.

without putting identifying info can you discuss whats recorded on your uc cc journal

is there any reference to use other websites or one specific website ?

its also a check of your own cc if you have one

by Committed Claimant Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:36 pm

Several members who are regular contributors to our discussions make reference to their UC CC. I have asked several times, as has Frank, for a copy/template to be posted with any personal identifiable references redacted, and now you have added to the call, but there appears to be a reluctance to indulge us.

My own contention, as you can see from the current discussions we are having on the subject, is that there is enough to make a case for reasonable doubt that using the Journal is mandatory.

You are right that there does not appear to be any definitive response from DWP stating categorically that use of the Journal is not mandatory.

Conversely, there is no response that states categorically that it is mandatory. They rely on their interpretation of a specific clause that is open to more than one interpretation.

This is not surprising since the primary object of the Journal is to monitor claimants’ activity and the primary function of a coach is also to monitor claimants’ activity. The term ‘coach’ is a misnomer.

If the DWP accepted my contention the workload on coaches would become unmanageable, they would not be able to cope. The whole UC experiment would collapse under uncontrolled pressure. That is why they'll never do it.

In about 9 months’ time (not long now) UC will begin to be rolled out to all legacy benefit recipients. Members who currently enjoy the relatively relaxed requirements of a JSA/CC will then feel the added impositions that a UC CC confers on them. Membership depends on help and reliance on information and the experiences of each other. Unless we adhere to that principle, I would politely remind members that you risk finding yourself alone with no one to turn to the next time they come for YOU.

by **Admin** Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:32 pm

part of reason why ive asked I dont have one otherwise id have posted it up

but best to start somewhere and ask what has been recorded on peoples jsa cc documents gives us all chance to see whats been put in them from all areas

I suspect it will be different between the areas whats been recorded in them

I believe the journal is like the es4jp document only records stuff that the claimant has to do in it to claim jobseekers allowance

however many things inputted onto the journal is not a mandatory requirement just the adviser being ackward to get any sanctions possible against the claimant

there wasnt any reference that es4jp had to have any written evidence written upon it or that it could be photocopied for dwp benefit many have had there copy photocopied when its not a requirement

many have been given a different format to record there jobsearch

yet it still comes down to it that a claimant can provide there jobsearch in any format of there choosing

though many a person should have a cv or a recnt one this has always been down to provide by showing dwp it not provide dwp with a copy of it

by jobberpw Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:49 pm

DWP says Universal Credit Journal not mandatory for your Work Search records or CV. ... “It is not a mandatory requirement for the claimant to provide the required work search evidence via their journal. The claimant must be able to provide written evidence of their work search.20 Oct 2017

Can send messages to wc through it anytime of day attach sick forms etc. Has its good points as if they make an error, it can easily backfire on them. Personally I like it for avoidence of doubt when dealing with them.

I was asked to use particular websites. They have an obsession with Reed for some strange reason and then had a spell of using social media sites. Wanting all to put a nice pic up to the world of "LOOK I'M STILL OUT OF WORK." Feel this is their way of trying to make people feel guilty for being out of work no matter what their reasons maybe.

by Committed Claimant Thu Nov 28, 2019 5:55 pm

After around 2 months you are the only one to respond to Admin’s request for anyone who has signed a Universal Credit Claimant Commitment to say what reference, if any, it makes to the Journal or whether or not it is a mandatory requirement to use it.

Your post begins by reiterating what he DWP says about using the Journal, i.e. that it is not mandatory. You say that you use it now because you choose to, it suits you to use it.

The question that Admin was asking was whether or not any reference to using the Journal was included in your UC CC when it was initially offered to you and did you have any option but to accept its inclusion. In other words; What exactly does your CC say about the Journal or that it must be used?

Also, what does your CC say about having to use a specific job search site? The DWP is acting illegally if it makes such demands.

by jobberpw Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:58 am

Sorry about that but have a lot going on. As to what roach shop say on use x websites is just that, they named a few. Some of those websites being social media.And, they sneaked that into the 'agreement'.

Do I use them websites no. Have I ever used them no. Have they ever asked if I am/do, no.

But never mind, in their deluded world they think that by me doing so will increase my chances of finding work.

As I said to them, so a bit like keep buying more lotto tickets then

️

by Jara Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:52 am

My CC says:

I'll sign in to my online account often to:

complete all activities in my to-do list
report changes to my circumstances promptly, including changes to work

If I can't get online, I'll report any changes by calling 0800 328 5644 (Textphone: 0800 328 1344). Calls to 0800 numbers are free from landlines and mobiles.

My CC doesn't mention any particular sites besides that there are Facebook groups and it lists a few. Doesn't mention that I need to use them, just that I should join them.

That's all I can find about using websites.

by jobberpw Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:55 am

The less crap they put in a CC the better.

by Tarquin Flotsam Sat Nov 30, 2019 12:15 pm

Jara wrote:My CC says:

I'll sign in to my online account often to:

complete all activities in my to-do list
report changes to my circumstances promptly, including changes to work

If I can't get online, I'll report any changes by calling 0800 328 5644 (Textphone: 0800 328 1344). Calls to 0800 numbers are free from landlines and mobiles.

My CC doesn't mention any particular sites besides that there are Facebook groups and it lists a few. Doesn't mention that I need to use them, just that I should join them.

That's all I can find about using websites.

My CC states exactly the same as posted above. No mention of using the journal to post my work search activities. No demands to use any particular jobsite either, my CC states this:

discussion uc cc references to a journal or journal removed from cc Bleh10

The only time I ever use the journal is to make sure my payment has been processed, to check the date/time of my next appointment, if I need to query anything with my work coach, and to accept my CC if any changes are made. So I usually log into my journal about 3 or times a month...

by Committed Claimant Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:19 pm

Thanks for your responses, guys. Details like these are very helpful to those who might be looking for answers to questions about what they should or should not be blindly accepting on the pretence that they must accept them or else.

Knowledge of these details is also helpful to enable a constructive discussion to be had with a view to formulating legitimate, appropriate and sound advice on how to counter the worst excesses of some of the less scrupulous work coaches.

Jobber: I was in no way chiding you in particular for tardiness. After all, you were the first to respond at all and you got the discussion off the ground, finally.

I assume the ‘agreement’ you are referring to is your Claimant Commitment?

Were those websites included in your CC decided for you without any discussion or choice of alternatives?

What make you think that ignoring the contents of your CC is nothing that should concern you and how do you propose to respond if or when some coach comes along and asks for evidence of your compliance with your CC?

What evidence are you giving them to satisfy them that you are complying with your CC, if it isn’t evidence of what is actually asked of you in your CC?

Jarra:

‘Complete all activities in my to-do list’

The to-do list itself is not your CC but by including this activity on your CC it could be construed as accepting that any arbitrary or Tom-fool activity on the to-do list must be completed.

The question then is; how much control do you have on what goes on that list? Are, or could activities be added to the list without discussion, agreement or consent?

This is nothing less than a crafty, even deceitful, way of circumventing the legally binding obligations of your CC and enabling the inclusion of activities that are legally questionable.

Reporting changes of circumstances promptly is a legal requirement which everyone must accept when claiming benefits of any kind whether inserted as an activity on one’s CC or not.

Tarquin: Here again mention of specific jobsites, those that appear to be the most popular. Was there any discussion about which sites to include?

“No demands to use any particular jobsite either”.

You say that your CC states:
“I will use Jobsites – Indeed, Total Jobs, CV Library, Reed.co.uk. and any others I find at least 5 days per week. I am registered with these sites and have my CV uploaded, and will respond to email alerts for suitable job vacancies”.

If this activity is down on your CC then you are legally obliged to comply with it. It means that you have committed yourself to doing what it requires of you, provide evidence of having complied and be answerable should evidence of compliance be questioned. Not only have demands to use particular jobsites been made but also that you use them 5 days per week.

I can’t figure out why you should be under the impression that the opposite is the case.

Is it not a questionable coincidence that whatever the particular job requirement of the claimant, coaches and DWP always cite the same half dozen or so all over the country?

There are several hundred jobsites out there, certainly too many to list on any one form. Seems like creating them has become a lucrative industry in itself. Do you ever mention using any of them, or how many? If not, are you ever challenged for not finding them?

Interesting that you say no mention of the Journal in your CC despite assertions made by others in recent posts that all CCs now stipulate that it must be used.

No mention either of the Find a Job Service. Curious!

by Tarquin Flotsam Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:11 am

Committed Claimant wrote:Tarquin: Here again mention of specific jobsites, those that appear to be the most popular. Was there any discussion about which sites to include?

“No demands to use any particular jobsite either”.

You say that your CC states:
“I will use Jobsites – Indeed, Total Jobs, CV Library, Reed.co.uk. and any others I find at least 5 days per week. I am registered with these sites and have my CV uploaded, and will respond to email alerts for suitable job vacancies”.

If this activity is down on your CC then you are legally obliged to comply with it. It means that you have committed yourself to doing what it requires of you, provide evidence of having complied and be answerable should evidence of compliance be questioned. Not only have demands to use particular jobsites been made but also that you use them 5 days per week.

I can’t figure out why you should be under the impression that the opposite is the case.

What I was trying to explain is that my work coach didn't issue me with a list of job sites I need to use. The ones listed in my CC are the ones I told her I use most frequently. Also, looking on these sites at least 5 times a week doesn't bind me into applying for jobs they advertise, I do believe I haven't applied for one job listed on Reed since I started claiming UC.

Committed Claimant wrote:There are several hundred jobsites out there, certainly too many to list on any one form. Seems like creating them has become a lucrative industry in itself. Do you ever mention using any of them, or how many? If not, are you ever challenged for not finding them?

No, I never mention which job sites I use at my appointments. She can see in the email evidence I send to her directly, not through the journal, the sites I have used to apply for jobs. Most of my emails from these sites are just automated replies stating I have applied for such-and-such job.

Committed Claimant wrote:Interesting that you say no mention of the Journal in your CC despite assertions made by others in recent posts that all CCs now stipulate that it must be used.

No mention either of the Find a Job Service. Curious!

As I stated, no mention of using the journal to provide my jobsearch activities, but I will use it "often" to complete any activities in my to-do list. This list usually consists of accepting any changes to my CC and attending my next appointment.

I also pointed out at my first appointment with her that I don't use FaJ as I have found it to be absolutely useless, and she didn't question my views on this.

by Pintel Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:39 pm

Tarquin Flotsam wrote:
Jara wrote:My CC says:

My CC doesn't mention any particular sites besides that there are Facebook groups and it lists a few. Doesn't mention that I need to use them, just that I should join them.

That's all I can find about using websites.
My CC states exactly the same as posted above. No mention of using the journal to post my work search activities. No demands to use any particular jobsite either, my CC states this:

The only time I ever use the journal is to make sure my payment has been processed, to check the date/time of my next appointment, if I need to query anything with my work coach, and to accept my CC if any changes are made. So I usually log into my journal about 3 or times a month...

One thing to go off topic for a minute @Tarquin Flotsam mentioned about jobsites on his C-C. I was wondering about this with regards to FOI IR2019/38977 states that “creating and maintaining job profiles - however, a claimant must not be mandated to use particular Internet or Social Media sites (this must be entirely voluntary)”. Yet it states certain jobs site? You have to wonder how legal this is then. Basketball

https://respectfulbenefits.forumotion.com/t4184-jobsites-deemed-suitable-by-the-dwp?highlight=jobsites

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/jsa_and_uc_creating_and_maintain#outgoing-963958

https://respectfulbenefits.forumotion.com/t4178-social-media-for-job-applications

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/613280/response/1467226/attach/html/2/IR2019%2038977%20reply.pdf.html

by Committed Claimant Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:52 pm

You are quite right Pintel.

The difference here is that Tarquin asked for the specific jobsites to be included.

This is where a lot of claimants come to grief, when stuff they agree to and accept on their CC in good faith could, at some future date, be used against them.

by Guest Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:51 pm

2. The claimant commitment
Each claimant required to look for work must discuss and accept their own
personalised claimant commitment to receive UC payments. The commitment sets
out what actions or conditions they are required to complete and should “…be set
according to individual capability and circumstance.”15 In most cases, the
commitment is drawn up during an initial meeting16 between the claimant and
Jobcentre work coach, at the local Jobcentre Plus. Within a couple, both individuals
must accept their own commitment, which can be nevertheless affected by a change
in the other partner’s work status or circumstances.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/833426/ssac-occasional-paper-21-effectiveness-of-claimant-commitment-in-universal-credit.pdf

It is the claimants favour to agree JSA/UC CC actions/steps that are beneficial as well as reasonable/achievable for their circumsntance.

by Committed Claimant Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:01 pm

Non_Deficere2 wrote:2. The claimant commitment
Each claimant required to look for work must discuss and accept their own
personalised claimant commitment to receive UC payments. The commitment sets
out what actions or conditions they are required to complete and should “…be set
according to individual capability and circumstance.”15 In most cases, the
commitment is drawn up during an initial meeting16 between the claimant and
Jobcentre work coach, at the local Jobcentre Plus. Within a couple, both individuals
must accept their own commitment, which can be nevertheless affected by a change
in the other partner’s work status or circumstances.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/833426/ssac-occasional-paper-21-effectiveness-of-claimant-commitment-in-universal-credit.pdf

It is the claimants favour to agree JSA/UC CC actions/steps that are beneficial as well as reasonable/achievable for their circumsntance.

The quote you have reproduced here is one that has oft been repeated by DWP since 2013. If I had a pound for every time I read it I would probably have too much money to be eligible for benefits at all.

The question we are discussing here is whether or not what DWP says they do on the subject of CC is a reflection on what they actually do.

You have rightly highlighted the line; “…..discuss and accept their own personalised claimant commitment……..”

Is this what happens?

We are being repeatedly informed, especially by claimants on UC, that their CC is put to them as a fait accompli without even a semblance of discussion, agreement or consent.

You would be more accurately representing the DWP’s interpretation of, and their approach to, a CC if you high-lighted the next line; “..The commitment sets out what actions or conditions they (the claimants) are required to complete….”

After all, this interpretation is one the coaches have been instructed to adhere to. They emphasise on claimants that they should accept the conditions imposed on them, no ifs, no buts. They waste no time with little or no prompting in using threats of dire consequences unless their ideas of the conditions to be included in a CC is accepted without question. They make no mention of the part of the definition you have highlighted, far less give an opportunity for discussion at all, never mind consideration of personal circumstances.

The contents of a claimant’s commitment defines his/her behaviour, extent or range of activities to be undertaken, while in receipt of UC. Get this wrong at the outset and the prospect of grief and of suffering a sanction is certain, virtually written in, preordained.

It is easy enough to point to DWP documents claiming all sorts of guidance on what should be the procedures, we’ve all done it, been doing it for years, to no avail. The problem is that those procedures are not followed by jobcentre coaches. Not only that but they have distorted and misrepresented the procedures and the law to such an extent that they have no qualms about blatantly declaring, insisting and rendering then irrelevant.

Take the question of using the Journal and should using it be in a CC, the subject matter of Admin’s initial post in this thread. All the documentation says that using it is not obligatory or mandatory and that no sanction will accrue from choosing not to use it. The reality is different, in fact it seems to have become, from the coach’s point of view, a compulsory activity now.

The questions then arise; why should this be so? how has it come about? What are we doing about it?

Check out a recent discussion, it might clarify the position:
https://respectfulbenefits.forumotion.com/t663-you-must-use-a-universal-credit-journal

by **Admin** Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:08 am

You have rightly highlighted the line; “…..discuss and accept their own personalised claimant commitment……..”

Its what is supposed to happen?

We are being repeatedly informed, especially by claimants on UC, that their CC is put to them as a fait accompli without even a semblance of discussion, agreement or consent.

if i do remember often many have said we didnt discuss using facebook/twitter accounts via there uc cc but they was still put on there paperwork

it has been known where they have also found other job agencys included on there cc where it hadnt been discussed

i know many should read them before signing these documents but i suspect many havent read them at all just signed the document in the belief that the roach had been truthful when filling out the form and then reading it back to them

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