Discussion of universal basic income
+4
El-dudeareno
Brutus
KatiLB
helping_hand
8 posters
Page 1 of 8
Page 1 of 8 • 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 
Discussion of universal basic income
by Caker Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:38 pm
Carried over from another thread
El-Dudeareno wrote:According to this webpage, the UBI isn't a new idea, I was just wondering what the barriers to creating this UBI are? Is it the 'I'm alright Jack philosophy' in this country or is it that you always need a scape-goat in society to keep the masses in line?
http://basicincome.org/basic-income/history/
"The idea of an unconditional basic income has three historical roots. The idea of a minimum income first appeared at the beginning of the 16th century. The idea of an unconditional one-off grant first appeared at the end of the 18th century. And the two were combined for the first time to form the idea of an unconditional basic income near the middle of the 19th century."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income#Criticism
Caker- Posts : 1813
Points : 2417
Reputation : 270
Join date : 2017-04-14
Re: Discussion of universal basic income
by helping_hand Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:03 pm
A great deal of serious discussion and activity taking place in Scotland right now:
http://basicincome.org/topic/scotland/
A Universal Basic Income for Scotland – a talk by Annie Miller
http://basicincome.org/topic/scotland/
A Universal Basic Income for Scotland – a talk by Annie Miller
helping_hand- Posts : 163
Points : 354
Reputation : 79
Join date : 2017-07-10
Re: Discussion of universal basic income
by Caker Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:31 pm
Sorry HH. I forgot you had already started UBI thread when I started this one 
Caker- Posts : 1813
Points : 2417
Reputation : 270
Join date : 2017-04-14
Re: Discussion of universal basic income
by helping_hand Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:46 pm
Last edited by helping_hand on Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:28 am; edited 1 time in total
helping_hand- Posts : 163
Points : 354
Reputation : 79
Join date : 2017-07-10
KatiLB- Posts : 34
Points : 60
Reputation : 20
Join date : 2017-04-29
Age : 43
Location : Durham UK -
Re: Discussion of universal basic income
by El-dudeareno Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:57 pm
Thanks for the posting Helping_hand
The video does started off with a bit 'Feminist' rant
. But it starts at around 06:50. Otherwise, it gives a good over view of the UBI, and how it could be good for the country and all of its citizens.
Also are there any more key player’s championing the UBI, that are worth seeking out.
The video does started off with a bit 'Feminist' rant
. But it starts at around 06:50. Otherwise, it gives a good over view of the UBI, and how it could be good for the country and all of its citizens. Also are there any more key player’s championing the UBI, that are worth seeking out.
El-dudeareno- Posts : 441
Points : 629
Reputation : 72
Join date : 2017-04-19
Location : Looking out my back door -
Re: Discussion of universal basic income
by helping_hand Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:02 pm
Good question El-dudeareno! 
I am not sure. Brutus may be able to assist us further.
I am not sure. Brutus may be able to assist us further.
helping_hand- Posts : 163
Points : 354
Reputation : 79
Join date : 2017-07-10
UBI Understand what's it means
by Brutus Wed Aug 02, 2017 4:36 am
A good introduction to UBI from Scott Santens, a propagandist for the idea of Unconditional Basic Income.
UBI is often considered a sort of utopian concept, but it is not only real but necessary if we want to progress as mankind.
It requires a leap into a different way of thinking, for instance UBI is not associated with the traditional left/right politics but with a progressive (and against regressive) humanistic tradition.
A tradition started with the enlightenment and somehow kidnapped by Marxism/Capitalism dialectics in the 19th Century.
UBI is a concept that will redefine the social history of the 2st Century but is a battle still to be won, and it will not be easy.
Humanity Needs Universal Basic Income in Order to Stop Impeding Progress
“I believe Richard Feynman was one greatest scientific minds.
He had a very particular way of looking at the world thanks to his father, and it was to look at the world around him as if he were a Martian.
Like a fish born into water, it’s hard to actually see water as being water, because it’s all a fish ever knows.
And so as humans, it’s a good idea to try and step outside of our usual frame of mind, to see what it is we as humans think and do, from the perspective of a mind totally alien to our everyday environment. With that in mind, here’s what humans are doing right now, from the perspective of someone from far, far away...””
...[read the full article]
Source: Huffington Post
Brutus- Posts : 394
Points : 504
Reputation : 106
Join date : 2017-04-15
Location : Southwark, South East London
Re: Discussion of universal basic income
by Brutus Mon Aug 07, 2017 3:33 am
Have you ever feared that moment of economic insecurity? Encountered some unpredictable event, lost a job or simply just left the university not knowing what’s to come. Guy Standing talks about how flexible economic practices create conditions of uncertainty and unpredictability in our life, we might soon face a disruption of the whole economic system. He shows how basic income can be vital and affordable tool to respond to the changing world of work.
Guy Standing, who is a Professorial Research Associate at the School of Oriental and African Studies in London, has written books about social uncertainty and economic insecurity. In his bestseller “Basic Income: A 21st Century Economic Right”, he argues that “Every person, regardless of age, sex, marital status or work status, should have the right to a basic income, adequate to enable him or her to cover basic needs.”
Guy Standing, who is a Professorial Research Associate at the School of Oriental and African Studies in London, has written books about social uncertainty and economic insecurity. In his bestseller “Basic Income: A 21st Century Economic Right”, he argues that “Every person, regardless of age, sex, marital status or work status, should have the right to a basic income, adequate to enable him or her to cover basic needs.”
Brutus- Posts : 394
Points : 504
Reputation : 106
Join date : 2017-04-15
Location : Southwark, South East London
Re: Discussion of universal basic income
by Brutus Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:11 pm
THE NETHERLANDS: Government authorizes social assistance experiments in first five municipalities
The municipalities of Groningen, Wageningen, Tilburg, Deventer, and Ten Boer have received permission from the Dutch Ministry of Social Affairs and Employment to proceed with proposed social assistance experiments.
Jetta Klijnsma, State Secretary of Social Affairs and Employment, signed the authorization of the five municipal experiments on June 3.
Groningen and Ten Boer will be carrying out their experiments in cooperation with one another.
In each of the experiments, which will run for two years, participants will be randomly selected from a pool of current social assistance beneficiaries (with participation voluntary for those selected), and assigned either to a control group or to one of several treatment groups.
Each experiment has at least three treatment groups, testing the following types of interventions: (1) removing reintegration requirements (e.g. job applications and training programs) on welfare benefits; (2) providing a more intensive form of reintegration service; (3) permitting participants to earn additional income on top of their welfare benefits. Subjects assigned to the third treatment groups will be permitted to retain 50% of additional earned income, up to a maximum of €199 per month, for the duration of the two-year experiment. In contrast, under current policy, welfare recipients are permitted to keep only 25% of additional income, and only for up to six months.
The Groningen / Ten Boer experiment includes a fourth treatment group, in which participants are permitted to choose to join any one of the three preceding groups.
...
Souce: BIEN
Brutus- Posts : 394
Points : 504
Reputation : 106
Join date : 2017-04-15
Location : Southwark, South East London
Re: Discussion of universal basic income
by Brutus Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:27 am
The question is rather can society afford not to implement UBI ?
Brutus- Posts : 394
Points : 504
Reputation : 106
Join date : 2017-04-15
Location : Southwark, South East London
Re: Discussion of universal basic income
by KatiLB Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:23 pm
you know the one thing that worries me about UBI (and by default the 'living wage')?
When I was offered my paid job, I was told that it would be LW ... I was only going to be 'working' 24hrs a week, but if I'd been on LW then my WTC would have been almost non-existent (meaning I'd have been worse off than I was before I got a job)
When I was offered my paid job, I was told that it would be LW ... I was only going to be 'working' 24hrs a week, but if I'd been on LW then my WTC would have been almost non-existent (meaning I'd have been worse off than I was before I got a job)
KatiLB- Posts : 34
Points : 60
Reputation : 20
Join date : 2017-04-29
Age : 43
Location : Durham UK -
Re: Discussion of universal basic income
by Brutus Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:56 am
All the point of UBI is to foster the economic independence of its member.
An economic independence that is essential to implement the rights that are in theory endowed with citizenship.
We are still far from it but UBI, if and when will be implemented or imposed by civic pressure, will give each individual more of a choice to take or leave what we now call employment.
The future employer, in a fully functional UBI society, will have to adapt their business to cater for creativity and well being of their "employees".
There are plenty examples in the world of successful business that used less exploitative ethics than their competitors and indeed journeying historically from slavery to unionised labour should illustrate the point of principle.
Brutus- Posts : 394
Points : 504
Reputation : 106
Join date : 2017-04-15
Location : Southwark, South East London
Re: Discussion of universal basic income
by Brutus Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:07 am
An interesting article about the often bunted "Inflation argument against UBI
A new study debunks one of the biggest arguments against basic income
As someone who writes frequently about universal basic income — the idea of giving everyone enough money to live on, no strings attached — the most common argument I hear against the proposal has nothing to do with its cost, or the potential that it’ll discourage people from working, an attack that former Vice President Joe Biden used this week.
The most common criticism I hear, rather, is that basic income would cause massive inflation.
This idea has some intuitive plausibility to it. Imagine the government printed and handed out $1 billion for each person in the country. It seems obvious that this wouldn’t actually make everyone billionaires — that is, it wouldn’t let everyone live in Four Seasons suites and fly Gulfstream jets everywhere. A lot of people would just stop working because of their newfound riches, corporations would have to jack up wages dramatically to keep their labor force, those higher wages would lead to higher prices, and the resulting inflation would wipe out most or all of the gains.
Handing out $12,000 to every American adult every year, as basic income advocates like former Service Employees International Union president Andy Stern have suggested, is a much smaller change than that. But it seems like the same principle should apply. If everyone going to a given Trader Joe’s suddenly has $1,000 more per month to spend, shouldn’t Trader Joe’s jack up prices in response?
Luckily, new research on a program in Mexico gives us a real-world test case for this idea. And it strongly suggests that giving out cash doesn’t cause inflation — or if it does, the effects are very, very mild.
In 2003, the Mexican government launched a food assistance program known as Programa de Apoyo Alimentario (loosely translated to Food Aid Program, or PAL), aimed at poor rural villages. During its rollout, the government did a randomized experiment involving 200 villages. Some villages got in-kind food aid: a bundle of common food items, like rice, vegetable oil, and canned fish.
The total market value of the food was about 200 pesos ($20 US) a month per household. Other villages got a similar amount of cash, with no strings attached. Still others got nothing, and served as a control group.
The economists looking at the program — the Naval Postgraduate School's Jesse Cunha, the Geneva School of Economics and Management’s Giacomo De Giorgi, and Northwestern's Seema Jayachandran — wanted to know what the different kinds of transfers did to prices. Did giving out cash, with no strings attached, drive up prices? What did handing out food do to food markets in those villages?
They find no statistically significant change in prices in villages getting the cash transfer. Their estimate is that prices rose 0.2 percent (a tiny change), but they can't rule out the possibility of no effect at all. By contrast, villages getting the food saw prices fall by 3.9 percent. This makes sense: People are less inclined to buy something if they're being given some of it for free anyway. So vendors have to cut prices to get more buyers.
...
Souce: Vox"
A new study debunks one of the biggest arguments against basic income
As someone who writes frequently about universal basic income — the idea of giving everyone enough money to live on, no strings attached — the most common argument I hear against the proposal has nothing to do with its cost, or the potential that it’ll discourage people from working, an attack that former Vice President Joe Biden used this week.
The most common criticism I hear, rather, is that basic income would cause massive inflation.
This idea has some intuitive plausibility to it. Imagine the government printed and handed out $1 billion for each person in the country. It seems obvious that this wouldn’t actually make everyone billionaires — that is, it wouldn’t let everyone live in Four Seasons suites and fly Gulfstream jets everywhere. A lot of people would just stop working because of their newfound riches, corporations would have to jack up wages dramatically to keep their labor force, those higher wages would lead to higher prices, and the resulting inflation would wipe out most or all of the gains.
Handing out $12,000 to every American adult every year, as basic income advocates like former Service Employees International Union president Andy Stern have suggested, is a much smaller change than that. But it seems like the same principle should apply. If everyone going to a given Trader Joe’s suddenly has $1,000 more per month to spend, shouldn’t Trader Joe’s jack up prices in response?
Luckily, new research on a program in Mexico gives us a real-world test case for this idea. And it strongly suggests that giving out cash doesn’t cause inflation — or if it does, the effects are very, very mild.
In 2003, the Mexican government launched a food assistance program known as Programa de Apoyo Alimentario (loosely translated to Food Aid Program, or PAL), aimed at poor rural villages. During its rollout, the government did a randomized experiment involving 200 villages. Some villages got in-kind food aid: a bundle of common food items, like rice, vegetable oil, and canned fish.
The total market value of the food was about 200 pesos ($20 US) a month per household. Other villages got a similar amount of cash, with no strings attached. Still others got nothing, and served as a control group.
The economists looking at the program — the Naval Postgraduate School's Jesse Cunha, the Geneva School of Economics and Management’s Giacomo De Giorgi, and Northwestern's Seema Jayachandran — wanted to know what the different kinds of transfers did to prices. Did giving out cash, with no strings attached, drive up prices? What did handing out food do to food markets in those villages?
They find no statistically significant change in prices in villages getting the cash transfer. Their estimate is that prices rose 0.2 percent (a tiny change), but they can't rule out the possibility of no effect at all. By contrast, villages getting the food saw prices fall by 3.9 percent. This makes sense: People are less inclined to buy something if they're being given some of it for free anyway. So vendors have to cut prices to get more buyers.
...
Souce: Vox"
Brutus- Posts : 394
Points : 504
Reputation : 106
Join date : 2017-04-15
Location : Southwark, South East London
Brutus- Posts : 394
Points : 504
Reputation : 106
Join date : 2017-04-15
Location : Southwark, South East London
Re: Discussion of universal basic income
by El-dudeareno Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:15 pm
Heres an article about Finland's UBI .
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/31/finland-universal-basic-income
.https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/31/finland-universal-basic-income
El-dudeareno- Posts : 441
Points : 629
Reputation : 72
Join date : 2017-04-19
Location : Looking out my back door -
Re: Discussion of universal basic income
by El-dudeareno Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:22 pm
Also I was wondering through history humans have given there ideologies a logo’s or symbol such as the “ichthys” used in Christianity. I was just wondering if the UBI movement has an image or symbol to go along with this concept? 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ichthys
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ichthys
El-dudeareno- Posts : 441
Points : 629
Reputation : 72
Join date : 2017-04-19
Location : Looking out my back door -
Re: Discussion of universal basic income
by Brutus Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:26 am
Still work in progress but it is possible to contribute here:
https://imgur.com/a/wjaWS
Brutus- Posts : 394
Points : 504
Reputation : 106
Join date : 2017-04-15
Location : Southwark, South East London
Re: Discussion of universal basic income
by Rowratty Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:52 pm
UBI will never be accepted.
The 'Work Ethic' is far too ingrained in our "Work Sets You Free" culture.
Those who have a vested interest in maintaining an 'exploitable' work force would never allow UBI to become popular.
Ask, how much money, time, resources are invested in the 'benefit system'.
If the 'poor' have a basic living income, enough to live on, what happens to the 'whip holder'? I can no longer force you to provide your labour with threats of destitution...What happens to my profits?
The 'Work Ethic' is far too ingrained in our "Work Sets You Free" culture.
Those who have a vested interest in maintaining an 'exploitable' work force would never allow UBI to become popular.
Ask, how much money, time, resources are invested in the 'benefit system'.
If the 'poor' have a basic living income, enough to live on, what happens to the 'whip holder'? I can no longer force you to provide your labour with threats of destitution...What happens to my profits?
Rowratty- Posts : 24
Points : 31
Reputation : 3
Join date : 2017-11-13
Location : Buckinghamshire
Re: Discussion of universal basic income
by Brutus Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:05 am
"Civilisation process" is a term used, rather vaguely, to define the course of humankind toward a more rational, kinder type of society.
It exist because one can observe that through the ages, humankind has, surprisingly, improved.
More people, in percentage, have basic needs catered, education is spreading and violence, most surprising of all, is declining.
But anyone can also see that the process is not uniform or linear.
Sometimes, in some places there are reverses that seem to push history back and sometimes for several generations things do not improve or even worsen.
Sometimes conflicts explode and seem to be as violent as ever. But still somehow humanity seems to tick along.
Partly due to technology, the cumulative domestication of the planet and partly due to much debated changes in the collective thinking.
UBI will not be accepted by some of the present elites , perhaps like manumission could not have been contemplated by former ones.
A combination of changing attitude in new emergent elites, forced changes imposed from grassroots or by fortune of war however has, generation by generation, brought in changes.
We can only play our little part in this global dance. Keep the fire of humanism and civilisation burning in time of recess and fuel the flames of change in times of progressive advance.
Sometime we can win, sometime we can perish trying.
But nothing is impossible.
Brutus- Posts : 394
Points : 504
Reputation : 106
Join date : 2017-04-15
Location : Southwark, South East London
Brutus- Posts : 394
Points : 504
Reputation : 106
Join date : 2017-04-15
Location : Southwark, South East London
Re: Discussion of universal basic income
by Caker Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:35 am
One cartoon missing Brutus:
I understand that businesses kicked off when the minimum wage was first mooted.
...then they kicked off again when it was raised.
I understand that businesses kicked off when the minimum wage was first mooted.
...then they kicked off again when it was raised.
Caker- Posts : 1813
Points : 2417
Reputation : 270
Join date : 2017-04-14
Re: Discussion of universal basic income
by Brutus Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:51 pm
Absolutely. There is this myth about inflation taking away any available UBI and it is of course pure balderdash.
Minimum wages, family support allowances and lots of other benefits, in different guises and different Countries, have all added value "from nothing" but they do cause inflation.
For a more in-depth rebuttal of this often used UBI criticism see:
Wouldn’t Unconditional Basic Income Just Cause Massive Inflation?
An answer to the response to the answer to the growing question of the 21st century
Brutus- Posts : 394
Points : 504
Reputation : 106
Join date : 2017-04-15
Location : Southwark, South East London
The Guardian view on productivity: the robots are coming
by echidna Sat Nov 25, 2017 11:35 am
The Guardian view on productivity: the robots are coming
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/24/the-guardian-view-on-productive-capitalism-it-needs-humans-more-than-robots
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/24/the-guardian-view-on-productive-capitalism-it-needs-humans-more-than-robots
echidna- Posts : 3443
Points : 8214
Reputation : 161
Join date : 2017-04-20
Re: Discussion of universal basic income
by Brutus Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:42 am
In spite of everything the world keeps on turning...
US/KENYA: GiveDirectly Officially Launches UBI experiment
The US charity GiveDirectly has officially launched its trial of basic income in rural Kenya, and is now enrolling experimental participants.
The US$30 million experiment will be the largest trial of basic income to date, in terms of both size and duration.
All residents of about 120 rural Kenyan villages, comprising more than 16,000 people in total, will receive some type of unconditional cash transfers during the experiment; some of these villages, moreover, will receive the universal basic income for twelve years.
It is also unique among current experiments in that it is designed as a randomized controlled trial in which the experimental units are villages rather than individuals. This means that, unlike the studies occurring in Finland, Ontario, the Netherlands, and elsewhere, the GiveDirectly experiment will be able to capture community-level effects of the basic income.
...
Brutus- Posts : 394
Points : 504
Reputation : 106
Join date : 2017-04-15
Location : Southwark, South East London
Page 1 of 8 • 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8
Similar topics» Discussion of universal Basic Income - part 2
» We don’t just need a Universal Basic Income, we need a Universal Basic Services System. Here’s what it would look like.
» General discussion and lounge
» universal basic income - rightsnet
» Universal basic income is the best way to help the self-employed
» We don’t just need a Universal Basic Income, we need a Universal Basic Services System. Here’s what it would look like.
» General discussion and lounge
» universal basic income - rightsnet
» Universal basic income is the best way to help the self-employed
Page 1 of 8
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum|
|
|