Jobs applications via Jobcentre

I suggested to Leaf that their post might get more responses on this part of the forum. My sausage fingers are useless at copying & pasting on my phone so instead have put in a link to Leaf's original post below.

In brief, can a WC mandate a person to apply for a job when the only way to apply for the job is to submit CV to the JCP who then forward it to the employer? Leaf is on UC if that makes a difference.


https://respectfulbenefits.forumotion.com/t4869-i-ll-apply-for-any-jobs-recommended-by-my-work-coach#16532

lets see if you all remember the discussion that we had on tt's site

handing cvs over to dwp isnt the best things and even i will redact info from that document

the redaction was to stop dwp gleaming info from the cv for other documents or applying for jobs on your behalf also stops dwp's agents using this info like the job clubs and work programs that theyve had over the years.

to get this info i also included a reference that these would be provided at the job interview to basically stop the gleaming from happening.

only provided info was used on the document

can a WC mandate a person to apply for a job when the only way to apply for the job is to submit CV to the JCP who then forward it to the employer

The JCP acting as an intermediary (middle-man) between the employer and the jobseeker makes them an employment agency. All employment agencies are subject to the Conduct of Employment Agencies regulations where consent is required for an employment agency to act on behalf of a jobseeker, which includes sending a jobseeker's CV to an employer on behalf of the jobseeker.

Absolut wrote:The JCP acting as an intermediary (middle-man) between the employer and the jobseeker makes them an employment agency. All employment agencies are subject to the Conduct of Employment Agencies regulations where consent is required for an employment agency to act on behalf of a jobseeker, which includes sending a jobseeker's CV to an employer on behalf of the jobseeker.

Thanks. I still get the feeling I'm going to have to fight a sanction when I refuse. They really don't like being told no.

Make it clear you are happy to apply directly to the employer for the job. If you have the employer's details, and you are suitable for the vacancy I don't suppose there is anything stopping you sending off your CV to the employer if you fancy the job.

If they refer you for a sanction then Absolut has given you your good reasons to help your case with the Decision Maker.

Believe it or not a WC once made me apply for a job as a WC . Alas, I never even got an interview.

I'm fine with that. 90% of what they do at those work reviews is print out a bunch of unsuitable jobs for you to apply for and then asking why you didn't apply for any of them.

Ignatius wrote:Believe it or not a WC once made me apply for a job as a WC . Alas, I never even got an interview.

I'd tell them my morals wouldn't allow me to work for an employer that routinely breaks GDPR and treats vulnerable people like shit.

Leaf wrote:
Thanks. I still get the feeling I'm going to have to fight a sanction when I refuse. They really don't like being told no.

You don't have to say NO. Just ask them to provide you with the legislation that states they can do this.

They really don't like being told no.

Neither do 2 year olds.

what they do at those work reviews is print out a bunch of unsuitable jobs for you to apply for and then asking why you didn't apply for any of them

Applying for unsuitable jobs is not classed as actively seeking employment. Work coaches ignore this fact. Not actively seeking employment is a sanctionable offence. Refusing to apply for unsuitable vacancies is a claimant putting themselves into the position where they are in compliance with benefit regulations rather than not in compliance with them. A work coach handing over unsuitable vacancies is an indication of their contempt towards an employer as well, who will not appreciate getting a CV where the skills and experience in that CV simply don't match the role. Even the Conduct of Employment Agencies regulations states the following:

19.  Neither an agency nor an employment business may introduce or supply a work-seeker to a hirer unless it has obtained confirmation—

(b) that the work-seeker has the experience, training, qualifications and any authorisation which the hirer considers are necessary, or which are required by law or by any professional body, to work in the position which the hirer seeks to fill; and

(c) that the work-seeker is willing to work in the position which the hirer seeks to fill.

When someone simply wants a copy of my CV, I write "sample" across. it. No-one can use a "sample" CV other than to try to obtain generic info from it. The word "sample" is due to the recommendation that for each job I apply for I should use a tailored CV. The DWP can't argue that a generic CV is better than a tailored one.

(3) Neither an agency nor an employment business may introduce or supply a work-seeker to a hirer unless it has obtained confirmation that the work-seeker is willing to work in the position which the hirer seeks to fill.

Does this override DWP legislation when agreeing on a CC? Also, will it stop a sanction from being imposed? I presume you could supply this info to a DM or for a mandatory reconsideration if needed.

[quote="Absolut"]

They really don't like being told no.

Applying for unsuitable jobs is not classed as actively seeking employment. Work coaches ignore this fact. Not actively seeking employment is a sanctionable offence. Refusing to apply for unsuitable vacancies is a claimant putting themselves into the position where they are in compliance with benefit regulations rather than not in compliance with them. A work coach handing over unsuitable vacancies is an indication of their contempt towards an employer as well, who will not appreciate getting a CV where the skills and experience in that CV simply don't match the role. Even the Conduct of Employment Agencies regulations states the following:

19.  Neither an agency nor an employment business may introduce or supply a work-seeker to a hirer unless it has obtained confirmation—

(b) that the work-seeker has the experience, training, qualifications and any authorisation which the hirer considers are necessary, or which are required by law or by any professional body, to work in the position which the hirer seeks to fill; and

(c) that the work-seeker is willing to work in the position which the hirer seeks to fill.

On the topic of 'applying for unsuitable jobs'. My question is what if you don't completely match up to the criteria? I have been told on many a 'course', that you should still apply, as you maybe the next best candidate. As a good fit, isn't completely unsuitable. But how many candidates are perfect for the role? What is the JCP 's stance on this does anyone know .

No idea. I suspect a lot WC will take a liberal interpretation so they can get you to apply for anything and everything. If a job lists an essential requirement, such as a qualification, technical knowledge or experience that I don't possess then I fail to see how I could be a suitable candidate. Employers probably do know what they want in a candidate, which is why they list essential requirements. Employers that list qualities that are desirable I kind of can see the point of applying even if not the perfect fit. WC and providers probably overlook employers often use person specifications to keep the number of applications to a more manageable level.

On a side note, a WC once directed me to apply for a job in a small local business. Thankfully I was unsuccessful as it made the local rag a few months later after the owner got done for various dodgy dealings.

oneman wrote:Does this override DWP legislation when agreeing on a CC? Also, will it stop a sanction from being imposed? I presume you could supply this info to a DM or for a mandatory reconsideration if needed.

This is why I asked. My claimant commitment says I will apply for any job my work coach recommends as well as being in the action plan and I wasn't really given a choice on it. It was agree or no benefits.

I will try to avoid it unless they push me on it but thank you all for the info. I'm already on their shitlist for not volunteering for the work & health program.

My claimant commitment says I will apply for any job my work coach recommends as well as being in the action plan and I wasn't really given a choice on it.

Based on your statement, "the Action plan" and "CC" are clearly two different documents. Who issued the action plan?

The word "recommends" means "to advise as the best course or choice".

"Advise" means "tell them what you think they should do".

Should do and must do are 2 different things.

There is no good reason for the word "recommends" to appear in a JCP issued CC.

Please indicate who it was that directed you to give them your CV in order for them to then send that CV to an employer. Was it a JCP work coach (DWP employment officer) or was it a scheme provider (employment advisor)?

I will try to avoid it unless they push me on it

What is "it"?

Absolut wrote:Based on your statement, "the Action plan" and "CC" are clearly two different documents. Who issued the action plan?

It was issued by a pushy work coach at my first appointment who wanted me to sign into the journal and accept it immediately without even reading it. I said I didn't know my password and tried to get it altered at the next appointment when I was assigned to another coach but they weren't having it.

(Edit: Sorry, it's called work plan, not action plan but it's essentially the same document. The CC says I'll do everything in my work plan and the line is stated in both).

Absolut wrote:Please indicate who it was that directed you to give them your CV in order for them to then send that CV to an employer. Was it a JCP work coach (DWP employment officer) or was it a scheme provider (employment advisor)?

I told them initially that I don't consent to uploading my CV to the journal. I showed a copy to the work coach who said the CV was fine and wanted to make a copy which I again refused.

Every job they print out asks you to send your CV to a jobcentre email to apply. If you email and ask for contact details they reply by telling you to send your CV. As in the original thread, I wanted to know if I could refuse to apply for these jobs because I don't consent to them acting as an intermediary and if I would face a sanction by doing so.

By 'avoiding it' I mean not mentioning that I haven't applied for their jobs because I don't consent. Every time you go against something they want even when they can't legally make you, you're not making an effort and it's another thing they try to hold over you. It's the line we all walk. Why make life more difficult for yourself if you can distract them with something unrelated.

Leaf you can change your CC at any time just ask them. Remember it's an agreement between two parties. "I will apply for any job my work coach recommends" this can be removed or changed to "any reasonable job"

They only need to show them a copy of your CV to prove you have one. They can't mandate you to give them a copy. If they refuse to give you the details of the job vacancy then they have failed in their job and you will not be sanctioned. Unfortunately, this will not stop them from trying to sanction you if they feel like it but it will be overturned in your favor at the Decision maker stage or at the mandatory reconsideration stage. It all depends on your work roach and how vindictive they want to be.

Remember they are there to get you off benefits by any means and they are certainly not your friend.

I'm on legacy I B Jsa. My Claimant commitment doesn't specify number of jobs to apply for each week. It just says apply on jobsites etc. Three times a week

Are UC claimant commitment rules different to Legacy benefit CCs. Do they specify apply for eg. 10 jobs a week?.

At restart they tell me to apply for 20+ jobs per week. Can they do this, because my legacy claimant commitment doesn't ask this.

I think if you sign Restart's Action Plan they may have you over a barrel in relation to the actions they require you to undertake. I recall from the Restart guidance that they cannot mandate you to apply for a job, but they can refer you to the WC who can mandate you to apply for a job. I don't know if Restart can mandate you to apply for X jobs a week. Hopefully the real brains of the forum will be along to clarify that for you.

Never forget, if you don't sign their Action Plans they can't make you do very much.

The CC and Restart Action Plans are separate things in DWP land so differences between them are likely. Both only really exist as a potential sanctions trap to my cynical mind.

Topaz wrote:I'

At restart they tell me to apply for 20+ jobs per week. Can they do this, because my legacy claimant commitment doesn't ask this.

What if there isn't 20+ jobs you csn apply for in Local Labour Market.Do they at the Provider have a crystal ball? Especially with the UK likely to fall into a Ressession soon .





]

Have seen this on this site under action plan :-Gallazz wrote:
" This states that Restart have to issue a Mandatory Activity Notification whenever they want to mandate participants to any activity, so if your action plan was mandated, you would have received one. See below, 8.42:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/restart-provider-guidance/chapter-8-mandating-participants-to-undertake-activity"
So I guess activities on action plan are voluntary unless MAN is issued.

I've read that you don't have to sign action plan, however they can raise a compliance doubt if you don't do what's asked of you. (provider guidance Ch9)

As I said before it's all voluntary until they mandate it. Unless you have not signed any paperwork then they can't do anything.

oneman wrote:Leaf you can change your CC at any time just ask them. Remember it's an agreement between two parties. "I will apply for any job my work coach recommends" this can be removed or changed to "any reasonable job"

Of course and I'd like to, but it's really not worth fighting them on something until it becomes necessary. I just want to be prepared for when I do.

oneman wrote:It all depends on your work roach and how vindictive they want to be.

Remember they are there to get you off benefits by any means and they are certainly not your friend.

This. I had an appointment recently where the coach was flicking through their teams tabs. They have their own DWP forum like this where they're posting memes and talking shit about claimants.

My own CC adventures included one WC who decided my existing CC didn't require me to do much so she made me an appointment with her Team Leader for it to be made tougher. After my appointment with her Team Leader, I left with word for word the same CC. After my complaint, I never had to deal with that WC again. On another occasion I declined to sign a CC as it said I had to spend 35 hours a week jobsearching which is obviously not applicable to someone on JSA. The manager was promptly summoned. At my next appointment I had a new WC and a CC that made no mention of 35 hours of jobsearching.

My current CC requires me to apply for all "suitable vacancies", no reference to what a WC thinks I should apply for.

Leaf wrote:It was issued by a pushy work coach at my first appointment who wanted me to sign into the journal and accept it immediately without even reading it. I said I didn't know my password and tried to get it altered at the next appointment when I was assigned to another coach but they weren't having it.

(Edit: Sorry, it's called work plan, not action plan but it's essentially the same document. The CC says I'll do everything in my work plan and the line is stated in both).

Ok, thank you for the clarification. It's sometimes the case that a provider will get a work coach to insert what they want a participant on Restart to do into an official CC. I needed to know if that was the issue here. I have highlighted that the word "recommends" in a CC is a serious flaw. Following where it says "I'll do everything in my work plan" the words, "that is reasonable and achievable in my circumstances" are missing.

The idea that "you must comply with everything in a CC" is backwards. It's the other way around - the CC must comply with the law. Work coaches believe they can put anything they like in a CC, but if it's something that is not reasonable and achievable, they will find that it's unenforceable.

I told them initially that I don't consent to uploading my CV to the journal. I showed a copy to the work coach who said the CV was fine and wanted to make a copy which I again refused. Every job they print out asks you to send your CV to a jobcentre email to apply. If you email and ask for contact details they reply by telling you to send your CV.

The DWP loses nothing by helping a claimant apply for a job through whatever means possible, including the post. Limiting it to email only makes zero sense. If it's by "email only", that is a breach of the Equality Act 2010. What is their reason for the breach? Are they vetting CVs? If so, automatically excluding those without email accounts is a flaw in whatever plan it is they've got going there.

When an employment officer (DWP work coach) gives a claimant a job to apply for the advert must contain the full name and contact details of the employer, the wage, hours etc. The reason why there must be full details is a disabled applicant, for example, needs to know exactly where the employer is located, how many stairs there might be, if there's a lift or not, how far away the job is etc before applying. Omitting the full details of either the employer or their location is suspicious.

As in the original thread, I wanted to know if I could refuse to apply for these jobs because I don't consent to them acting as an intermediary and if I would face a sanction by doing so.

I don't know if you will be sanctioned or not if you refuse to apply for those jobs via this new weird method. They've not done this before. It's as new to me as it is to you and I've been dealing with the JCP for nearly a decade. The vast majority of applications are made via job search websites, not via a JCP email address. It's weirdness is what stands out. It's not normal. It's not in any new legislation that I know of and it's not been added to any of the guidance. I checked this morning.

I will have a think about what they are up to and hopefully get back to you tomorrow.

Absolut wrote:Are they vetting CVs?

This is definite.

All the other information such as address and salary is included except contact details.

They all come with a box like this:

How to Apply: CV to be emailed to: employersupport.location@dwp.gov.uk stating Job Reference

They may be abusing that email address.

"Employersupport.location@dwp.gov.uk is an email address associated with the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) in the United Kingdom. The email address is intended for employers who have questions or concerns related to the provision of benefits, including jobseeker's allowance, income support, disability benefits, and pension credits. The DWP provides a range of services to help employers manage their obligations, such as advice on how to hire staff, how to manage employee absences, and how to deal with workplace disputes. If you have a question or concern related to your responsibilities as an employer, you may wish to contact the DWP using this email address."