Appt to change from JSA to UC - I take it this is compulsory to change?

Also, I'm required to provide my email address and password for email; my bank account (do they mean statements or bank account details?); and mobile phone.

Is it compulsory to provide email address and mobile phone?

cc120 wrote:Also, I'm required to provide my email address and password for email; my bank account (do they mean statements or bank account details?); and mobile phone.

Is it compulsory to provide email address and mobile phone?

No, it is not compulsory.  Managed migration resumes in April 2022, you will receive a legal notification of your transfer to UC.  

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/lifestyle/money/universal-credit-managed-migration-24498818

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/universal-credit/before-you-apply/moving-to-universal-credit-from-other-benefits/

You must not give your email address and password.  I would query that requirement.

It is your bank account details they are seeking.

You can't be required to provide a mobile/landline number when claiming JSA.

D.Appleby wrote:

cc120 wrote:Also, I'm required to provide my email address and password for email; my bank account (do they mean statements or bank account details?); and mobile phone.

Is it compulsory to provide email address and mobile phone?

No, it is not compulsory.  Managed migration resumes in April 2022, you will receive a legal notification of your transfer to UC.  

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/lifestyle/money/universal-credit-managed-migration-24498818

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/universal-credit/before-you-apply/moving-to-universal-credit-from-other-benefits/

You must not give your email address and password.  I would query that requirement.

It is your bank account details they are seeking.

You can't be required to provide a mobile/landline number when claiming JSA.

Thank you very much D.Appleby.

When attending the appt can I just say that I don't want to transfer to UC but stay on JSA?

Hi D.Appleby, thank you again for the info.

Had my appt today and was told that JSA will close down in weeks, so it's best to change over to UC now. If I agreed, they would book me an appt for 2 weeks time, when I would go through the transfer to UC, so there would be no break in my claim, I suppose they mean having to wait for up to 5 weeks for UC to kick in.

He was all set to make my appt for 2 weeks, but I asked if going onto UC is voluntary. He said that it was but soon wouldn't be and I would be forced onto it.

I didn't bother mentioning that managed migration has been paused until April 2022 or that managed migration ensures that on UC you will receive at least the amount you receive on your previous benefit, whereas voluntary migration could mean you receive less.

When I said I prefer to wait until it's mandatory to transfer to UC, he became very terse and said in that case I would be expected to come in weekly and if I didn't attend, my claim would be closed down immediately. Then he made my appt for Wednesday though my signing day has always been Thursday.

It was a hard sale and without your info I would have fallen for it.

cc120 wrote:Hi D.Appleby, thank you again for the info.

Had my appt today and was told that JSA will close down in weeks, so it's best to change over to UC now. If I agreed, they would book me an appt for 2 weeks time, when I would go through the transfer to UC, so there would be no break in my claim, I suppose they mean having to wait for up to 5 weeks for UC to kick in.

He was all set to make my appt for 2 weeks, but I asked if going onto UC is voluntary. He said that it was but soon wouldn't be and I would be forced onto it.

I didn't bother mentioning that managed migration has been paused until April 2022 or that managed migration ensures that on UC you will receive at least the amount you receive on your previous benefit, whereas voluntary migration could mean you receive less.

When I said I prefer to wait until it's mandatory to transfer to UC, he became very terse and said in that case I would be expected to come in weekly and if I didn't attend, my claim would be closed down immediately. Then he made my appt for Wednesday though my signing day has always been Thursday.

I would ask either formally or informally why are you being subjected to weekly attendance at the jobcentre.

It is not reasonable for you to attend weekly as a consequence of not volunteering to move to UC early.  What is the benefit to you?

Also request via FOI regarding the relevant policy.

It was a hard sale and without your info I would have fallen for it.

Reasonableness (the ‘Wednesbury Principles’) Quick link to full details — section 2.9 of “Reasonableness (the “Wednesbury Principles”)” on page 35

• A decision made subject to a discretionary power must be ‘reasonable’, i.e. the decision must be rationally open to a reasonable decision maker in possession of all the facts in the case.

• ‘Reasonableness’ includes an implicit recognition that there may be many ways in which a decision maker might exercise a particular discretion, and there may be more than one lawful conclusion that can be reached. That does not mean, however, that a court reviewing it would have reached the same decision. Irrationality Quick link to full details — sections 2.10-2.11 of “Irrationality” on page 36

• ‘Unreasonableness’ or ‘irrationality’ in law is defined by the Courts according to the circumstances and context of the case. In particular, the Courts are more likely to hold that a decision is unreasonable in a case involving fundamental or human rights.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/746170/JOYS-OCT-2018.pdf

You may also wish to inform the DWP that your claim cannot be closed immediately for 'failure to attend'.  Some claims have been closed unlawfully even if the claimant attended!!    Once your claim is closed you are automatically transferred to UC.

Here are the relevant rules:

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/192184/response/473959/attach/6/FTA%20Guidance.pdf

D.Appleby wrote:You may also wish to inform the DWP that your claim cannot be closed immediately for 'failure to attend'.  Some claims have been closed unlawfully even if the claimant attended!!    Once your claim is closed you are automatically transferred to UC.

Here are the relevant rules:

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/192184/response/473959/attach/6/FTA%20Guidance.pdf

Thank you again D.Appleby. Regarding the weekly as opposed to fortnightly signing, I asked him if it is the case that the JCP manager had instructed him to make people who don't voluntarily move to UC before the Managed Migration resumes, sign on weekly. He had said on the appt he tried to persuade me to move to UC that as I won't be moving to UC, he stated 'he said' (I assumed he meant the manager) that therefore I will have to sign on weekly. But on this last appt his story changed to 'we' decided to make long term claimants sign only weekly. I asked him who he meant by 'we'. It was then he admitted that it was in fact his decision alone to make me sign on weekly as I am a long term claimant. He added that if he wanted to he could make me come in every day. I replied that he would surely need a good reason for that.

I asked that had I moved to UC would I be signing fortnightly. He replied that as most communication with UC claimants is done via phone/pc, that I would only have to sign on every 3 months.

Should I send a letter to the JCP manager stating the terms that you have provided me with?

jobberpw wrote:cc120. I'd question them seriously on the issue of you having to attend their roach shop weekly, never mind daily. I'd also tell them with them again using their delusions of you having to attend daily is not indicative of them being able to find you work.

If these morons were fit for purpose and evidently, their not, as by their notion they surely would have found you suitable work after a long time.

Don't forget to reclaim all travel costs should they insist on such lunatic ideas of attending roach shop daily/weekly.

Thank you jobberpw. Went in today on my usual signing day. Another of his claimants had a query and spoke to him just before roach was to call me. The man was sitting in the seat in front of me so heard the whole thing. The roach started shouting as he most always does, so I thought he will take his anger out on me as he has done before when he was reprimanded by his superiors on an issue not relating to me. Roach argued with the man for sometime, then apologised of keeping me, though he had kept me waiting 20 minutes on the last appt without attempting an apology.

He indicated he was about to make my next appt. I stated I would prefer a fortnightly appt and he replied that it would be weekly as I was on JSA. I had him read the following, supplied by D.Appleby above, before he made the appt.

'Reasonableness (the ‘Wednesbury Principles’) Quick link to full details — section 2.9 of “Reasonableness (the “Wednesbury Principles”)” on page 35

• A decision made subject to a discretionary power must be ‘reasonable’, i.e. the decision must be rationally open to a reasonable decision maker in possession of all the facts in the case.

• ‘Reasonableness’ includes an implicit recognition that there may be many ways in which a decision maker might exercise a particular discretion, and there may be more than one lawful conclusion that can be reached. That does not mean, however, that a court reviewing it would have reached the same decision. Irrationality Quick link to full details — sections 2.10-2.11 of “Irrationality” on page 36

• ‘Unreasonableness’ or ‘irrationality’ in law is defined by the Courts according to the circumstances and context of the case. In particular, the Courts are more likely to hold that a decision is unreasonable in a case involving fundamental or human rights.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/746170/JOYS-OCT-2018.pdf'

As he was reading it he remarked, which part was he supposed to be taking notice of, and I said the parts relating to unreasonable decisions. He asked whose going to decide what is reasonable. I replied ultimately the court (aid that OK the court can decide) but that I will be writing to his manager first. He finished reading it and set about making a weekly appt, @ Tuesday 30 Nov, to coincide with when his in again.

I asked if it was because I was a long term claimant (as he had said before) that he is making weekly appts. He replied that it was because I was on JSA, AND that he wasn't happy with my job search. I replied that I had never been asked for my job search details though I brought it with me every time I had an appt. He said OK let me see it. I gave it to him. It is in the form of a table format, with all required details of job search. As he was reading it he said that I should supply a copy of each application. I replied that, that would require a lot of paper and ink. He then relented and asked if he could keep my copy and I said no. He could easily have made a copy for himself.

I asked him if he could give me a note as to why he has me come in weekly that I could include in my letter to the manager but he refused.

When I had my first appt with him after lockdown, he had told me that if I miss an appt, I would be going straight to UC as my JSA claim would immediately end. I pointed this out to him and that it had been incorrect information as legally I have 5 days after missing an appt to contact DWP. He said that he had said that my JSA claim would end immediately if I called in sick 3 times, as I had called in sick 1 time. He had said that, but he had also said that missing one appt would mean a close of my JSA claim. He said he couldn't remember saying that.

He then said I would hear from, something about Universal Credit. I said I already had (as I received a letter asking me for my opinions about UC). He said well you will hear from them again and this time it will be mandatory. I said you have been threatening me with various information every time I have an appt. He replied that he hadn't threatened me but just giving me information. Though he always seems to be giving me 'information' anytime I query having to come in weekly.