Restart program

Ignatius wrote:Absolut, re your comments that Restart providers are operating as though they are employment agencies. This may be of interest to you - the Recruitment and Employment Confederation proudly announce a Partnership with Maximus to help with Restart.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.....lol.

This is the bit in the provider documents about voluntary activity:

9.3. You are not required to raise a compliance doubt for voluntary activities which the Participant or Potential Participant has failed to undertake.

As for the rearranged appointment in just over a week he denied all knowledge of it, even though it had been made less than 36 hours previously.

Did you record what was said to you in that last phone call?

I certainly did record the conversation. I'm turning into quite the Columbo thanks to Restart provider shenanigans.

I think I will attend the rearranged appointment to show while I am willing to attend and participate in Restart, it is the provider who doesn't wish to engage with me.

[quote="Ignatius"I think I will attend the rearranged appointment to show while I am willing to attend and participate in Restart, it is the provider who doesn't wish to engage with me.
[/quote]

I would not attend the rearranged appointment until you are mandated to do so. Obviously that can't happen as you do not have a signed action plan with them. They must write all mandations in your signed action plan.
I think what has happened is that the time has lapsed for them to sign you up so they aren't getting any money and are telling you that you are now wasting their time. They can't cancel your claim but they might try to raise a failed to participate with JCP that obviously will be thrown out as it's voluntary.

oneman wrote:[quote="Ignatius"I think I will attend the rearranged appointment to show while I am willing to attend and participate in Restart, it is the provider who doesn't wish to engage with me.

I would not attend the rearranged appointment until you are mandated to do so. Obviously that can't happen as you do not have a signed action plan with them. They must write all mandations  in your signed action plan.
I think what has happened is that the time has lapsed for them to sign you up so they aren't getting any money and are telling you that you are now wasting their time. They can't cancel your claim but they might try to raise a failed to participate with  JCP that obviously will be thrown out as it's voluntary. [/quote]

I know but it really does wind them up when they have to deal with me now. When I called Mr Shouty a few days ago to find out why he hadn't contacted me for my phone appointment he was quite the smoothy until I said my name ... I almost felt sorry for him.

I'm not sure they could raise a Fail to Participate. Instead it will have to be Did Not Attend according
to Ch. 2 of the Provider Guidance. If they haven't been able to register a start 30 working days from the day after the referral date that appears to be their only course of action. But then as the Manager did tell me at my first meeting, "what's the provider guidance? I've never heard of it" so who knows what they will say to JCP. The 30 working days are definitely up so I either get a DWP Envelope of Doom imminently or it should be mentioned next time I sign on.

Having spent my day going through the providers texts/emails, transcribing our meetings and calls, reading the Provider Guidance again, I don't even know where to begin with them. At every contact they act like they can do as they please. The way they are delivering Restart bears no relation to what they are supposed to be doing.

I like the fact that you are wasting their time but you need to clear up what your position is. If you are no longer on their books then you need to find out if they are still claiming money for you. This is why they went to jail last time. The sooner we can close these parasites down the better.
Let us know how you get on and I suggest doing a SARS to find out if they are still claiming money for your participation.

Ignatius wrote:Instead it will have to be Did Not Attend according to Ch. 2 of the Provider Guidance.

Nope. Chapter 2 does not apply. They can't claim you didn't attend. That was all you were required to do. Read Chapter 3. There is nothing in Chapter 3 about a claimant having to sign anything, except possibly a travel expenses form. They quite happily accepted the referral and they saw you face to face. They then destroyed evidence that they acted outside their remit during that first meeting.  

3.12. Following the completion of the Initial Face to Face Meeting you must record the date of the meeting in the PRaP system, as the Start Date on the Restart Scheme.

SAPOE Regs state that you are to continue to participate in SAPOE scheme mandated meetings and activities until either the DWP or the provider gives you a written notice to stop participating in the Restart scheme, or your JSA ends, whichever is earlier.

Once a claimant is on a SAPOE Scheme and is FTP all the DWP can impose is a 4 week sanction, then 13 weeks, and finally 26 (no more allowed after that). FTP in a SAPOE scheme does not lead to claim closure unless there is proof of lack of ASE and availability. They haven't even bothered to tell you about any vacancies, so those 2 items don't even enter the scenario.

If they have not registered a start a DM can't enact a sanction or close your claim. Simple as that. All they can do is return you to the JCP, whose orders are to refer you again until you attend. Oh, whoops, you already did.

That is why Job seekers is better than UC. On UC you get sanctioned until you re engage with restart or get their bullshit overturned at tribunal.

My bad Absolut, I mixed up Ch 2&3.

With regards to a SAR request to the DWP to find out if a start has been registered - do I need to request all information on PRaP which is the system for referrals and registering starts, since the date of my referral? As far details of any conversations between provider and JCP about me, will a request for any telephone calls, emails, meetings be sufficient or do I need to be more specific?

I originally thought a start would have been registered for me because they would want their cash, but after yesterday's transcribing sessions, I'm minded to think that they haven't registered me.

You need to request ALL information that they hold on you including electronic and paper records and all telephone conversations. You can ask for specific items on certain dates and times if you want.
The first response from them is usually to ask for what phone call dates do you want so to save time I would ask initially.
You can also ask for this information directly through your restart provider and they will try and bullshit you by saying they are not the date provider and ask you to go through dwp. This is utter carp as they both are so if you want to waste more of their time then send them an email requesting this info then show them up when they try to pass the buck to dwp.

Thanks, Oneman.

I forgot to ask in my post above but does anyone know if the Participant ID that the provider enters on their forms/systems is used to register your start with DWP? At my last F2F meeting on the data sharing/induction form they had entered an ID number for me but I've no idea if that's just for internal use. The Provider Guidance talks of starts as Purchase Order numbers.

I'm really not sure on that but I would say that they are different for each one.

SAR done.

I'm no longer convinced they've registered a start due to a couple of things that I'd overlooked until yesterday's transcribing sessions. The advisor started going on about a referral they'd had for someone with f/t caring responsibilities and who they didn't think had work requirements/could take up a job. He said they had to go through the process of booking them in for 3 meetings in 15 days so they could then raise a doubt. The reason my little ears pricked up at this was on Day 15 after my referral I received both a text telling me I had an advisor appointment the next day, and an email welcoming me to Restart & telling me I had my initial meeting/induction 3days later. I had done my initial meeting 2weeks previously, and those 2 unexpected appointments would allow them to say they had invited me 3times in 15 days.

Secondly, the advisor is unsure at my 3rd f2f what date to put on the system for me - he asks a colleague whether it matters that the date of my assessments, which is the date of my 1st meeting (I know, the assessments they say never happened when it suits them) needs to be the same as the date of my 3rd f2f. I could be overthinking it all though.

They are just trying to pull a fast one and get the start-up payment for you being there. They know that you will never sign a contract with them so they will just try and get the money anyway. I told you they are the same set of criminals under a different name. They need reporting but who do you report them too. I went for a criminal fraud investigation  with the police in the end. That is when their area manager emailed me and said they had removed me from their books and I was no longer a client with them. This got them in trouble with dwp for breaking their contract with them. They then tried doing some arse kissing with me to get me back but it was too late. My work roach still thinks im on the work programme but I have not been in contact with them since early Jan and my one year is up in mid October. I prefer to keep it that way.

Hmm. Even though I recorded my advisor telling me they have closed my files and I am no longer their problem, I am now tempted to complain to the manager about their failure to conduct my telephone appointment last week. I wonder if I would then get a reply telling me I am closed with them! At my 1st phone appointment I asked what should I do if they don't phone when they are supposed to. I was told that should never happen and I should raise it with the business manager if it does occur.

On the subject of alleged provider fraud, my moron of an advisor in one of his rants actually used the 7 letter C word to describe both our world beating government and the Restart scheme itself! Every time he opens his mouth I'm reminded of David Brent from The Office. Should my Restart saga make it to a DM or, heaven forbid, a tribunal, I like to think my recorded evidence will provide high quality entertainment.

Apart from the 1st meeting, covered by a JSA598, which you attended, all their emails are inadmissible as evidence of anything other than voluntary meetings. That leaves an availability doubt which is covered by Chapter 11 - they'd have to contact your work coach and then fill in a JSA602.

the advisor is unsure at my 3rd f2f what date to put on the system for me - he asks a colleague whether it matters that the date of my assessments, which is the date of my 1st meeting (I know, the assessments they say never happened when it suits them) needs to be the same as the date of my 3rd f2f. I could be overthinking it all though.

The assessments don't happen in the 1st meeting. That's later. These bozos are clueless as to the procedures they are supposed to follow. The start date is the date on the JSA598 and they know full well that you were mandated to attend that first meeting, which you did, and that that is the date they are to enter into PRaP as Day 1. It is not up to them to waste your time for 6 weeks and then put a later start date, trying to make out that the other attendance is irrelevant. It's not. If I were you I'd ring the JSA 0800 number tomorrow morning and ask if your claim is ok. You don't have to say why you are asking. You can ask if there's a doubt. I know I would.

Oh Absolut, the phrase "waste of time" will follow me to my grave. At my last when the advisor lost it with me, he repeated the phrase stop "wasting my time" 8 times in less than a minute.

I had thought of phoning the JSA call centre. I was going to use the pretext of asking when my next appointment is because if there is a doubt on my claim I presume I won't have an appointment.

Well I keep on saying when the Restart Advisor phones me up "When are you going to put me on a Driving course or help with lessons to make this unemployed reject more employable? They say they can help me in other ways! I then laugh down the phone and say are you going enhance a non existent CV of a man who has spent the last 25 years unemployed with only 8 months of work history in the last 26 years, I keep telling them you can't help this jobless reject unless they can help with a full UK driving Licence. Even jobs like working outdoors such as landscape gardener, working for the local council, around my area supermarkets are crying out for delivery drivers. I keep telling them when are you going get me off or kick me off this mickey mouse scheme? Every time they phone I bang on about driving licences, I tell the Restart advisor that they irritate me a great deal and I can now tell that every time this guy phones me up I can tell the dispair in his voice knowing full well that they will never get any where with me. I some times go into Dalek voice when on the phone say "I'm an unemployed Safeways checkout operator! Unemployed for 25 years! No one is going to employ me! I'm a reject! This does really wear this guy down. They don't want me turning up to the office anymore. I will be seeing the WC this week and I will be telling them to get me off this scheme as it is a waste of time for someone like me and I will also tell them that I will be seeing my MP, making an appointment with my doctor as this restart scheme is having an effect on my mental health.

Ignatius wrote:Oh Absolut, the phrase "waste of time" will follow me to my grave. At my last when the advisor lost it with me, he repeated the phrase  stop "wasting my time" 8 times in less than a minute.

This is the problem with them mandating a voluntary referral, using the SAPOE Regs to get you there and then the provider rejecting the referral as they have the legal right to do. They know that until they enter a start date on PRaP that there is no contract. There is only a referral, which they accept, and then reject when you won't sign their consent forms. It's possible the provider has heard about managed migration and this has been parsed into "your JSA claim will close and you will have to claim UC".

When the provider doesn't enter a date on PRaP, this leaves the DWP with a JSA598 that they issued and you obeyed. Legally, Restart continues for you until the DWP issues another notice rescinding the JSA598. Whether or not you voluntarily attend any meetings with the Restart provider from the date on the Regulation 5 notice onwards is irrelevant. The provider does not have to issue a MAN if they don't want to.

I had thought of phoning the JSA call centre. I was going to use the pretext of asking when my next appointment is because if there is a doubt on my claim I presume I won't have an appointment.

That's a good idea. If your claim has been closed they will tell you that straight away, but I don't think it has as it's a very serious thing for them to do and could lead to a court case.

After listening to that insufferable JSA call centre music for what seemed like an eternity, the call centre agent happily confirmed my next signing appointment. For now I live on as a JSA claimant. It is just over a week since the 30 days to register a start elapsed so who knows what is going on.

So today the showdown, When into Jobcentre, told WC I want off this mickey mouse scheme. They called over another WC I have had dealings with in the past they told me that the Restart scheme is not there to offer NVQ'S, Training, or Driving Courses. It there to get you a basic job! So there you have it the truth that this scheme is a load of rubbish! Just to offer min wage crappie jobs that in reality will not last longer then six months.

On another note my mental health has been slipping even before the Restart Scheme. A friend came down and made an appointment for me to see a mental health team next week as I have put it off for a few years and they can tell i'm not right. Even the JC, WC or Restart would not be able to deal with my demons and I do have a lot of demons.

fordcortina, if you ever do feel up to contacting your MP about your Restart experience I have every confidence you will tell them what the WC said about the purpose of Restart - because that's not what the blurb about this flagship scheme says. Why do Providers need just short of £3billion if they're not there to provide recognised training?? Why do they need 365 days to haunt your life if any old job will do?? My mistake, any old job for 6months will do when it gets a provider their ker-ching moment.

I swear, everytime I get sent on one of these schemes I feel like a dodgy car wash or nail bar - I'm just there to make it look like it is a legitimate transfer of money between the DWP and the provider.

Ignatius wrote:the call centre agent happily confirmed my next signing appointment. For now I live on as a JSA claimant.

I'm glad that your claim is still open.

Ignatius wrote:It is just over a week since the 30 days to register a start elapsed so who knows what is going on.

3.19. After 40 working days of the referral from the Jobcentre Plus work coach, the Potential Participant’s PRaP record will be auto-closed with an Outcome of “auto cancelled referral” where a start has not been entered.

Auto cancel of the referral is usually when a claimant has not attended, rather than a claimant attending and the provider not liking the fact that they can't get the claimant to sign consent forms. As you attended 3 times and have proof, then the auto cancel is going to look distinctly odd.

fordcortina1970 wrote:another WC I have had dealings with in the past they told me that the Restart scheme is not there to offer NVQ'S, Training, or Driving Courses. It there to get you a basic job!

Provider documents do mention training though, among other things, so if it's not true then "training" should be removed from the documents.

The Restart Scheme should design and tailor interventions in accordance with the labour market at a local level. This means seeking out and taking advantage of opportunities such as local growth sectors and local training initiatives and flexing the offer throughout the lifetime of the Restart Scheme based on emerging labour market challenges and opportunities.

5.10. When working with your Participant you should tailor any interventions based on your knowledge of local labour market needs, utilising opportunities from local employment growth and training initiatives. Where appropriate you will need to tailor activities, to take into account your Participant’s ability, and capability in terms of the type and location of work sought.

5.11. You should provide a wide range of support in order to address barriers to employment.

5.12. Where there is a requirement for a Disclosure and Barring Service (DBS) check for your Participant as part of any agreed activity then you are responsible for the associated costs.

5.38. You should also take into account your Participant’s personal beliefs when identifying job or training opportunities, for example, some individuals may have personal beliefs about working within certain types of employment, such as the food industry, and you should be sensitive to these.

5.56. Other types of training/ work experience: To be compatible with the Restart Scheme these must not be official Sector-based Work Academy Programme (SWAPs) opportunities that are part of the Chancellor’s ‘Plan for Jobs’.

A work experience opportunity subsidised or funded by a Provider, or through an arrangement the Provider has with an employer/ training partner (outside of the official SWAPs initiative) would be compatible with the Restart Scheme and could be considered for a Restart Scheme participant.

5.57. European Social Funded Provision (ESF): Individuals receiving Restart Scheme support can also receive ESF funded support where the individual has support needs which are above and beyond those that will be addressed by the Restart Scheme. ESF funded support cannot replicate the support provided by the Restart Scheme Provider but can be used to fund that additional support.

fordcortina1970 wrote:Just to offer min wage crappie jobs that in reality will not last longer then six months.

Likely correct, but that is not all they are supposed to offer.

On another note my mental health has been slipping even before the Restart Scheme. A friend came down and made an appointment for me to see a mental health team next week as I have put it off for a few years and they can tell i'm not right. Even the JC, WC or Restart would not be able to deal with my demons and I do have a lot of demons.

I hope they can help you.

I just found out about Restart today. I'm on JSA, and Restart is now rolling out for JSA claimants.

Is it possible to come off JSA for a few months, and then make a fresh claim so that you are not mandated for Restart until you are claiming JSA for the required time necessary to be eligible for it.

Does anyone know what the required time for eligibility is by the way?

Archangel wrote:I just found out about Restart today. I'm on JSA, and Restart is now rolling out for JSA claimants.

Is it possible to come off JSA for a few months, and then make a fresh claim so that you are not mandated for Restart until you are claiming JSA for the required time necessary to be eligible for it.

Does anyone know what the required time for eligibility is by the way?

As far as I know, once you are off JSA (for whatever reason) you won't be able to claim it again. It's now been replaced by UC, which you want to avoid.