Have I been mandated to attend a recruitment day by this work coach?

Hello everyone!

I am on Universal Credit with my partner. We are both looking for work.

Recently I had my work search review with my usual work coach. They mentioned that a fairly large employer in my town is hosting a recruitment day and it wouldn't hurt if I gave that a go.

I don't want to work for this employer. They are infamous for treating their employees very badly. I known a lot of people working there and most of them had to quit because they couldn't stand the job. It's also low paid and I would need to use public transport to get there. It's not a place I want to even set my foot at.

My work coach only verbally mentioned they thought this recruitment day would be something for me. Nothing was ever mentioned about it being mandatory.

Do you guys think I will get into trouble by not going?

And if she asks me about next time about the recruitment day, what should I say?

Jara wrote:Hello everyone!

I am on Universal Credit with my partner. We are both looking for work.

Recently I had my work search review with my usual work coach. They mentioned that a fairly large employer in my town is hosting a recruitment day and it wouldn't hurt if I gave that a go.

I don't want to work for this employer. They are infamous for treating their employees very badly. I known a lot of people working there and most of them had to quit because they couldn't stand the job. It's also low paid and I would need to use public transport to get there. It's not a place I want to even set my foot at.

My work coach only verbally mentioned they thought this recruitment day would be something for me. Nothing was ever mentioned about it being mandatory.

Do you guys think I will get into trouble by not going?

No, you have not be notified lawfully of a specified vacancy.

And if she asks me about next time about the recruitment day, what should I say?

Explain your concerns.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/848024/admk3.pdf

Failure to comply with a requirement to take up or apply for paid work
K3051 Legislation provides that a failure is a sanctionable failure where a claimant fails without good reason to comply with a
1. requirement imposed by the Secretary of State under a work search requirement to apply for a particular vacancy for paid work1 or
2. work availability requirement by not taking up an offer of paid work2. Note 1: For detailed guidance on paid work and the imposition of work search and work availability requirements see ADM Chapter J3 (Work-related requirements).
Note 2: It is for the DM to consider in every case where there is a failure whether the claimant had good reason. For detailed guidance on good reason see ADM Chapter K2 (Good reason).
Note 3: Providers can be authorised persons to act on behalf of the Secretary of State to mandate claimants to apply for or accept if offered a job vacancy3. See ADM Chapter K1 (General principles) for guidance on delegation and contracting out of certain functions to authorised persons. 1 WR Act 12, s 26(2)(b); 2 s 26(2)(c); 3 s 29

Failure or refusal to apply for a specified vacancy K3052
Where K3051 applies the claimant has to have been clearly informed of the particular vacancy.
Note: The jobs a claimant can be required to apply for must be jobs that the claimant can reasonably do based on their individual skills, ability, location, capabilities and capacity and their own resource and should normally be discussed with the claimant at the work search review. The claimant would have to show a good reason why a particular vacancy is unsuitable in their good reasons for any failure, for example the job required a skill or qualification the claimant did not have.
The meaning of a ‘particular’ vacancy
K3053 ‘Particular’ is not defined in legislation and so takes its ordinary meaning, which would be ‘an individual item’. In this context within the legislation this would be an identified individual vacancy that is ‘specified’ by the Secretary of State and has to be reasonable and suitable in the claimant’s individual circumstances.
The meaning of ‘specified’
K3054 The word ‘specified’ is not defined in legislation and therefore has to be interpreted in its normal context. The context here is that it allows a sanction to be imposed on a claimant who fails or refuses to apply for a particular job vacancy or accept a job when offered it. That context does not require a special meaning to be given to it, so ‘specified’ must be given its ordinary meaning. K3055 In its ordinary meaning, ‘specified’ means to ‘identify clearly and definitely’. Therefore in order for a higher-level sanction to be imposed some obligation has to be applied to it and the claimant should be clearly informed of
1. the particular vacancy and
2. what is expected of him and
3. by when he has to comply and
4. the consequences of failing to comply. Note: These principles have been established in existing case law with respect to job vacancies and sanctionable failures in JSA legacy benefit and so equally apply to UC claimants. Therefore a claimant can only be mandated under threat of a higher-level sanction to apply for an individual vacancy that is reasonable in their circumstances and has been clearly identified and defined to the claimant.
Informing the claimant of a particular vacancy
K3056 Legislation does not prescribe how a claimant is to be informed of a particular suitable vacancy. The claimant may be informed
1. personally when attending the UC outlet or elsewhere or
2. by letter or
3. by telephone or
4.by electronic means (such as by text or email if agreed with the claimant as the preferred method of contact) or
5. by setting the requirement on the Claimant Commitment.
Note 1: The most important thing is that however the claimant is notified of the vacancy, a record that all the criteria has been met is kept in the claimant history should it be required for evidence purposes later should a decision maker be required to make a sanction determination or in the event of an appeal.
Note 2: If the claimant is informed by a requirement on the Claimant Commitment or by a letter a copy should be retained for 3 years.
Note 3: A failure to record the relevant evidence could result in a sanction not being able to be imposed where appropriate.
Refusal or failure
K3057 Claimants may not actually refuse or fail to apply for or accept paid work for it to be a failure to comply. A failure to comply as per K3051 includes not taking the appropriate steps to improve their chances of getting the job such as attending an interview or they may behave in such a way that they lose the chance of getting the vacancy. For example they may
1.not arrive on time for interview or go to the wrong place through their own negligence or
2.impose unreasonable conditions, so that the employer withdraws the job offer or 3.make statements which, although reasonable in themselves, are intended to put the prospective employer off. These actions amount to refusals or failures to comply. However, if any statement under
3. was reasonable in the circumstances, and it was not made only to put the employer off, the claimants have not refused the vacancy. Also, claimants will have failed to accept a vacancy if they accept the job when it is offered, but then fail to start it.
Example 1 Seelma is looking for work as a supervisor in a bank, and has been getting UC for six months. She is offered a job as a bank clerk at an interview. She tells the person interviewing her that she will take the job, but will only stay until she finds a job as a supervisor. The employer decides not to give her the job. The DM decides that Seelma has not refused the vacancy.
Example 2 Pauline is offered a job. She says that she wants three weeks holiday within a month of starting. The employer withdraws the offer of a job. In this case her attitude is considered unreasonable and Pauline has refused an offer of a job without good 1reason. 1 R(U) 23/51
Example 3 Franz refuses to complete a form before he is interviewed for a vacancy. Because of this, the employer will not interview him. Franz has failed to apply for a vacancy without good reason1. 1 R(U) 32/52 Note: DMs should remember, when reading the caselaw, references to the employment having to be suitable no longer apply.
Example 4 The Work Coach gives Chin Lu an application form for a job in a local factory. She completes the application form and sends it to the employer. Chin Lu has written on the application form, in the space provided for additional information, “I am frequently advised by personnel managers and other simple-minded people that “it is easier to get a job if you have one already”. Why is it easier?? What do you expect the unemployed to do about it? There will always be long-term unemployed until you buck up your ideas!!” The employer does not invite Chin Lu for an interview. The DM decides Chin Lu has failed to apply for the job.
Example 5 An employer provides feedback to the Work Coach that Andy arrived for his job interview ‘unkempt, stinking of alcohol, wearing a tracksuit and trainers and his body language was that he lacked motivation and was uninterested’. The DM decides Andy has refused the vacancy and applies a reduction.
Claimants change their mind
K3058 Claimants who refuse or fail to apply for or accept a vacancy for paid work may change their minds and apply for or accept it
1. before it has been filled and
2. before the job was due to start and
3. their application is accepted for consideration by the employer. In such cases claimants have not refused or failed to apply for or accept the vacancy. Note: If claimants change their minds after a reduction period has been imposed the DM should consider revising or superseding the original decision.
Vacancy suspended or withdrawn
K3059 Where the claimant has refused a vacancy immediately and a sanction could be applied at that point in time, i.e. the claimant can show no good reason for the failure, a sanction can be imposed regardless of whether the vacancy is still “open”. If the claimant changed his mind and applied, i.e. the vacancy is still "open", the DM can take account of that and decide not to sanction. If he changes his mind, but can't apply because the vacancy has been either suspended or withdrawn, his change of mind will not assist him and he can still be sanctioned.
Example 1 Jamhal refuses to apply for an advertised vacancy given to him by the Work Coach and the DM decides a sanction can be applied. Before the determination to impose a reduction to his UC is made Jamhal changes his mind and applies for the vacancy as the closing date for applications has not passed. No reduction is imposed.
Example 2 Jamie-Lee fails to apply for a vacancy given to her by her Work Coach and the DM decides a sanction can be applied. A 91 day reduction is imposed to Jamie-Lee’s UC. Jamie-Lee contacts the Work Coach and says she has changed her mind and will apply for the vacancy after all, however the closing date for applications has passed. The DM decides the decision to sanction was correct and the decision is not revised, Jamie-Lee failed for no good reason to apply for a particular vacancy for paid work.

Welfare-Champion wrote:No, you have not be notified lawfully of a specified vacancy.

Sounds great! I will also mention that to my work coach if I am being asked. A recruitment day is not a specified vacancy, even though I can probably get an job interview there.

However I don't expect my work coach to care about me not being notified lawfully and they will still try raise a doubt against me.

Anyway thank you for pointing out relevant section in the guidelines. I will have an update in a few weeks

If they don't mention it then don't mention it.

If they do mention it then how would they know whether you attended or not?

I see Jara is being set up by roach shop for an opportunity of a liftime. I too have had those vacancies sent my way. A friend of mine got seriously stitched up. Attended initial interview. Given a test, failed test and next thing he knew was sent on a two week induction course by roach shop to work in a bloody ware house. What the hell he did there I don't know, but he quit last year.Someone called reed had something to do with the "training "

Hope you get a good outcome Jara.

Caker wrote:If they do mention it then how would they know whether you attended or not?

I can't easily lie about me attending this event. Not only could they follow up with the employer, but they might also know more about the recruitment day process than me which could tell that I am lying. Any follow up question about the recruitment day I would just be guessing the answers to.

Attend and do the bare minimum required to show that you participated as they like to say.

Grab a few leaflets and a free coffee if they have any and head for the exit. Ask questions specifically of interest to you. How much is the salary, is there full sick pay, what's the pension like, holiday entitlement, Union membership goes down well. And not to forget, when are the finishing times and any travel allowances.

Coincidentally, an open day was mentioned at my last sign-on. Just mentioned in passing, as in Jara's case, but when I looked at the employer's website and social media pages (and the JCP Twitter page), I found nothing about a jobs fare I can only surmise that my work coach was mixed up...

Returning to Jara's question, I get the impression it's quite safe not to attend things where there's no JSD (or equivalent on UC) - I know of people who have not attended courses and got away with it because there was no JSD.

Gallazz wrote:Coincidentally, an open day was mentioned at my last sign-on. Just mentioned in passing, as in Jara's case, but when I looked at the employer's website and social media pages (and the JCP Twitter page), I found nothing about a jobs fare I can only surmise that my work coach was mixed up...

Returning to Jara's question, I get the impression it's quite safe not to attend things where there's no JSD - I know of people who have not attended courses and got away with it because there was no JSD.

JSD's can only be issued to JSA claimants.

If Jara had been mandated to a jobsfair/recruitment day it would have been notified via the UC/CC, a letter or verbally with a warning that attendance was mandatory and a sanction may apply for non attendance.

Ref: https://www.gov.uk/administrative-appeals-tribunal-decisions/jb-v-secretary-of-state-for-work-and-pensions-uc-2018-ukut-360-aac

Welfare-Champion wrote:
If Jara had been mandated to a jobsfair/recruitment day it would have been notified via the UC/CC, a letter or verbally with a warning that attendance was mandatory and a sanction may apply for non attendance.

That's what I don't like - it's my word against the work coach.

Luckily I have the whole appointment recorded (audio only) on my phone, but I am hoping I don't have to take it to tribunal to be able to use the recording as evidence.

jobberpw wrote:Is this appointment very near to you Jara? if so just go and do similar as to what i posted.Like you say, 'tribunal'...will be a drawn out thing.They make it so.If your on JSA and they sanction you, it could take months to get them to a tribunal stage and meantime you will suffer.Just cover your own backside firmly.

Jobs fairs are a walk in the park.Interview will be another thing as they apply the sheep herding mentality.Gather sheep for interview, give you a test maybe, you fail test, you still start new job monday.Roach phones you to emphatically congratulate you on the new 'opportunity 'of which after looking at the figures you find out your worse off than ever    


Just went back and read your other posts Jara, so this is an 'employers open day' not a job fair ?

In case the scenario of what i mention above is likely to come about.If your not interested in this position for whatever reason that maybe use your own discretion to create a failure outcome.

The recruitment day have already happened. It was very short notice from the work coach and I had other plans for the day. Also not me wanting to even be there (I really dislike the business) decided it for me.
I could had tried to fail the interview, but as with most of these kinds of jobs they take anyone who is decent enough. These are zero-hero contracts, this company got very little to lose by hiring the wrong person for the job.

Now I am thinking you are right, it would probably been better to show up there and just screwed up somehow. At least then I wouldn't worry about my next JCP appointment.

jobberpw wrote:Not to worry Jara ive been there in that situation and hence my advice.

Are you now being taken on by this company?

If a company gets supplied too many sheep etc they will eventually get pissed off especially if their paying an agency.

I know what ya mean about it dosent seem to worry them i am guessing this is one of our wonderful warehouse opportunities maybe ?

What is likely to happen at your next JC appointment Jara ? am a bit confused,have you been offered the job and accepted and waiting for a start date ?

Nope, I am not being hired by the company.
All that happened was that my work coach mentioned that the business had a recruitment day the next day. I decided not to go.
And then I started getting worried about my work coach asking about it in a few weeks.