Can I refuse to move to UC from JSA before April 2022?

Appt received to move me to UC from JSA, but it's been brought to my attention that migration is to resume in April 2022. Therefore, can I just insist on staying on JSA until then, as there have been no change in circumstances?

To reply to my own question. Yes you can refuse to move before April 2022 as until then the move is voluntary.

As far as I know, under managed migration you have 3 months to apply for UC from the date of the letter. I'm not sure why roaches attempt to claim otherwise.

was told that JSA will close down in weeks, so it's best to change over to UC now

When you claim UC from JSA there is a 2 week run on of JSA and HB. JSA "will close down in weeks" after the UC claim is submitted.

What does "best to change now" mean? I've not found a definitive answer on this. Our roach was certain that there would be no 2 week JSA run on if I didn't switch before MM came in. As there is no sign of MM for quite a while I'd rather forgo that 2 weeks JSA run on and stay on JSA for as long as I can, thank you very much (you probably feel the same). At this time only the roach benefits from the switch, but they appear to be using the 2 week run on of JSA as an inducement by making out that it will disappear at the time of MM. Why do they push so hard to get us off JSA? I think it's because UC makes their harassment easier.

I hope you know that a roach can't arbitrarily switch your JSA appointment day. It's linked to your national insurance number. They need a good reason to see you more than once a fortnight. Will it help you get work? If the answer is no then they are seeking revenge for your right not to claim UC. How petty, ugly and tyrannical is that after what we've all been through in the last 18 months? The man is sick in the head.    

A question I've not found the answer to yet is where it states that it's ok for the DWP to bypass the JSA Labour Market Declaration signature.  According to the JSA Act - no LMD signature that isn't the fault of the claimant = automatic ASE has to be put on the system. All that's left then is failure to attend. How do they prove FTA when all prior appointments were attended and not one signature was captured? Food for thought.

P.S No-one can be forced to claim benefits btw. The 3 month window for managed migration is there because people can't instantly go from JSA to UC; some people need to arrange specialist help to apply. If your roach doesn't care why there's that 3 month time lag from the MM letter to the end of the time to claim UC before the JSA claim closes then he needs to go get some serious therapy.

Absolut wrote:As far as I know, under managed migration you have 3 months to apply for UC from the date of the letter. I'm not sure why roaches attempt to claim otherwise.

was told that JSA will close down in weeks, so it's best to change over to UC now

When you claim UC from JSA there is a 2 week run on of JSA and HB. JSA "will close down in weeks" after the UC claim is submitted.

What does "best to change now" mean? I've not found a definitive answer on this. Our roach was certain that there would be no 2 week JSA run on if I didn't switch before MM came in. As there is no sign of MM for quite a while I'd rather forgo that 2 weeks JSA run on and stay on JSA for as long as I can, thank you very much (you probably feel the same). At this time only the roach benefits from the switch, but they appear to be using the 2 week run on of JSA as an inducement by making out that it will disappear at the time of MM. Why do they push so hard to get us off JSA? I think it's because UC makes their harassment easier.

I hope you know that a roach can't arbitrarily switch your JSA appointment day. It's linked to your national insurance number. They need a good reason to see you more than once a fortnight. Will it help you get work? If the answer is no then they are seeking revenge for your right not to claim UC. How petty, ugly and tyrannical is that after what we've all been through in the last 18 months? The man is sick in the head.    

A question I've not found the answer to yet is where it states that it's ok for the DWP to bypass the JSA Labour Market Declaration signature.  According to the JSA Act - no LMD signature that isn't the fault of the claimant = automatic ASE has to be put on the system. All that's left then is failure to attend. How do they prove FTA when all prior appointments were attended and not one signature was captured? Food for thought.

P.S No-one can be forced to claim benefits btw. The 3 month window for managed migration is there because people can't instantly go from JSA to UC; some people need to arrange specialist help to apply. If your roach doesn't care why there's that 3 month time lag from the MM letter to the end of the time to claim UC before the JSA claim closes then he needs to go get some serious therapy.

Thank you Absolut. Regarding the weekly as opposed to fortnightly signing, I asked roach if it is the case that the JCP manager had instructed him to make people who don't voluntarily move to UC before the Managed Migration resumes, sign on weekly. He had said on the appt he tried to persuade me to move to UC that as I won't be moving to UC, he stated 'he said' (I assumed he meant the manager) that therefore I will have to sign on weekly.

But on this last appt his story changed to 'we' decided to make long term claimants sign only weekly. I asked him who he meant by 'we'. It was then he admitted that it was in fact his decision alone to make me sign on weekly as I am a long term claimant. He added that if he wanted to he could make me come in every day. I replied that he would surely need a good reason for that.

I asked that had I moved to UC would I be signing fortnightly. He replied that as most communication with UC claimants is done via phone/pc, that I would only have to sign on every 3 months.

Should I send a letter to the JCP manager stating the terms that you and D.Appleby have provided me with?

cc120. I'd question them seriously on the issue of you having to attend their roach shop weekly, never mind daily. I'd also tell them with them again using their delusions of you having to attend daily is not indicative of them being able to find you work.

If these morons were fit for purpose and evidently, their not, as by their notion they surely would have found you suitable work after a long time.

Don't forget to reclaim all travel costs should they insist on such lunatic ideas of attending roach shop daily/weekly.

jobberpw wrote:cc120. I'd question them seriously on the issue of you having to attend their roach shop weekly, never mind daily. I'd also tell them with them again using their delusions of you having to attend daily is not indicative of them being able to find you work.

If these morons were fit for purpose and evidently, their not, as by their notion they surely would have found you suitable work after a long time.

Don't forget to reclaim all travel costs should they insist on such lunatic ideas of attending roach shop daily/weekly.

Thank you jobberpw. Went in today on my usual signing day. Another of his claimants had a query and spoke to him just before roach was to call me. The man was sitting in the seat in front of me so heard the whole thing. The roach started shouting as he most always does, so I thought he will take his anger out on me as he has done before when he was reprimanded by his superiors on an issue not relating to me. Roach argued with the man for sometime, then apologised of keeping me, though he had kept me waiting 20 minutes on the last appt without attempting an apology.

He indicated he was about to make my next appt. I stated I would prefer a fortnightly appt and he replied that it would be weekly as I was on JSA. I had him read the following, supplied by D.Appleby on another post, before he made the appt.

'Reasonableness (the ‘Wednesbury Principles’) Quick link to full details — section 2.9 of “Reasonableness (the “Wednesbury Principles”)” on page 35

• A decision made subject to a discretionary power must be ‘reasonable’, i.e. the decision must be rationally open to a reasonable decision maker in possession of all the facts in the case.

• ‘Reasonableness’ includes an implicit recognition that there may be many ways in which a decision maker might exercise a particular discretion, and there may be more than one lawful conclusion that can be reached. That does not mean, however, that a court reviewing it would have reached the same decision. Irrationality Quick link to full details — sections 2.10-2.11 of “Irrationality” on page 36

• ‘Unreasonableness’ or ‘irrationality’ in law is defined by the Courts according to the circumstances and context of the case. In particular, the Courts are more likely to hold that a decision is unreasonable in a case involving fundamental or human rights.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/746170/JOYS-OCT-2018.pdf'

As he was reading it he remarked, which part was he supposed to be taking notice of, and I said the parts relating to unreasonable decisions. He asked whose going to decide what is reasonable. I replied ultimately the court (aid that OK the court can decide) but that I will be writing to his manager first. He finished reading it and set about making a weekly appt, @ Tuesday 30 Nov, to coincide with when his in again.

I asked if it was because I was a long term claimant (as he had said before) that he is making weekly appts. He replied that it was because I was on JSA, AND that he wasn't happy with my job search. I replied that I had never been asked for my job search details though I brought it with me every time I had an appt. He said OK let me see it. I gave it to him. It is in the form of a table format, with all required details of job search. As he was reading it he said that I should supply a copy of each application. I replied that, that would require a lot of paper and ink. He then relented and asked if he could keep my copy and I said no. He could easily have made a copy for himself.

I asked him if he could give me a note as to why he has me come in weekly that I could include in my letter to the manager but he refused.

When I had my first appt with him after lockdown, he had told me that if I miss an appt, I would be going straight to UC as my JSA claim would immediately end. I pointed this out to him and that it had been incorrect information as legally I have 5 days after missing an appt to contact DWP. He said that he had said that my JSA claim would end immediately if I called in sick 3 times, as I had called in sick 1 time. He had said that, but he had also said that missing one appt would mean a close of my JSA claim. He said he couldn't remember saying that.

He then said I would hear from, something about Universal Credit. I said I already had (as I received a letter asking me for my opinions about UC). He said well you will hear from them again and this time it will be mandatory. I said you have been threatening me with various information every time I have an appt. He replied that he hadn't threatened me but just giving me information. Though he always seems to be giving me 'information' anytime I query having to come in weekly.

The only job your roach has is to get you off benefits, not onto a different benefit simply because the rules of one benefit don't suit him over the rules of the other benefit. I'd put that front and centre in your complaint. You can't prove that he's using JSA rules to punish you for refusing to voluntarily apply for a benefit you do not have to apply for, but you can prove that he's abusing JSA rules.

When was the last time you signed a labour market declaration form?

Did you get a new claimant commitment with weekly attendance on it? Did you sign that CC?

Does he revisit his decision every week and explain to you how weekly meetings are going to help you get a job?

I don't have a lot of time to spend on this issue for you, but hang in there. Do your job search. Remember he wants something from you and he's only doing what he's doing because he's a big baby who doesn't like people saying NO to him.

I will try to find out how the Social Security (Coronavirus) (Further Measures) Regulations 2020 impact current signing sessions seeing as (at least) in our job centre we've not signed anything at all since March 2020. No Labour Market Declaration Form Signature (through no fault of the claimant) = "treated as available for work and actively seeking employment".