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Being Mandated onto WHP

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Post by Committed Claimant on Thu Apr 18, 2019 2:57 pm

Mighty Quinit:
If memory serves, you are still awaiting your initial referral interview with your work coach.

At that interview you should be informed of all you need to know about the programme and have it all explained to you. Any questions you raise should also be answered.

The links already posted contains all you need to know to prepare yourself for that interview. They explain what exactly the coach is obliged to discuss with you and that s/he must ensure that you are clear about what you should expect, and what is expected of you, whilst on the Programme. Once in procession of the full facts you will be invited to give your consent to the referral going ahead. You can decline the invite at this stage. Hopefully you will have picked up enough information at that stage to make a convincing argument to support your contention that in your circumstances the Programme is not appropriate.

If you want to contest or dispute a work coach decision or proposal, however ludicrous it may be, you will need to put your money where your mouth is and challenge him/her with vim and vigour. Any sign of weakness or wavering and you’re lost, not to mention a future of uncertainty and possibly much grief.

Everyone who has been through this or similar situations can tell you it isn’t easy, but by backing off even before the first hurdle is reached would suggest that your heart isn’t in it. You are not ready or prepared for the fight.

At least if you do as you seem to have decided you will be kicking the ball down the road for 6 months. You could be lucky and get a job in the meantime before you need to face all this again, if you don’t then face it you will.

It’s your call.


Absolut:
Unless you live in Harrogate, North Yorkshire, the chances of you being migrated onto UC before November 2020 are infinitesimal, unless, of course, your circumstances change.

See post at;
https://respectfulbenefits.forumotion.com/t3600-managed-migration-from-legacy-benefits-to-universal-credit


Gallazz:
That’s the spirit, don’t yield an inch until you have to, and even then spit in their eye.
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Post by Caker on Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:39 pm

CC, I like your style Very Happy
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Post by Committed Claimant on Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:21 pm

JCP not too keen on it.
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Post by Caker on Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:44 pm

You are as bad as I am Basketball
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Post by Pintel on Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:03 pm

I've been wondering if anyone has made a legal challenge about the HWP, being of any use to them. It just seems the HWP providers, are doing the same job as the JCP roaches? Helping people to over come barriers to work, and sign posting them when needed. confused

When I've read the job description of a JCP worker/roach and the HWP providers roach. Of how they are meant to help the claimant, they seem to be doing the same role. So it is not exactly value for money, some doing the same job twice, maybe they need to 'streamline' this HWP? Hence the comment about making a challenge to how this program will aid the claimant.   Question

Just look at Ms Cait Reilly, things can be achieved... geek

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/feb/12/poundland-ruling-work-programme
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Post by Committed Claimant on Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:02 pm

I don’t know whether anyone has made a legal challenge about the HWP or not.

There doesn’t appear to be much data or statistics available as yet to make an assessment of its effectiveness.

It appears to me like a beefed up version of the old Work Programme.

I haven’t come across any first hand account by claimants who have been referred to it of its advantages or benefits as yet either. Not sure if they survive the experience or if they just dissappear.
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Post by MightyQunit on Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:00 am

Committed Claimant wrote:Mighty Quinit:
If you want to contest or dispute a work coach decision or proposal, however ludicrous it may be, you will need to put your money where your mouth is and challenge him/her with vim and vigour. Any sign of weakness or wavering and you’re lost, not to mention a future of uncertainty and possibly much grief.

Everyone who has been through this or similar situations can tell you it isn’t easy, but by backing off even before the first hurdle is reached would suggest that your heart isn’t in it. You are not ready or prepared for the fight.

At least if you do as you seem to have decided you will be kicking the ball down the road for 6 months. You could be lucky and get a job in the meantime before you need to face all this again, if you don’t then face it you will.
The whole point in closing my claim would be to start a new claim when the linking period has expired, therefore not having to face this again unless I was on UC for another 2 years, hoping I could in that 6 months period get a job.

I have my Work Roach appointment next week where the process will officially start for being mandated, from what I've read when mandated you are put into a pool and people are picked at random to go on it to fill any places, so here's hoping there is not place, but I will wait to receive a formal letter for an appointment with the WHP provider before making my final decision what to do.

I don't think you could challenge successfully a Work Roach decision to mandate you onto the programme unless you have health reasons, which I don't, from what I've read, you could probably try but all you would be doing is delaying the inevitable.

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Post by Non Deficere on Wed May 01, 2019 8:40 pm

A suggestion:

You could tell you wc at the referral interview that you intend to close your UC claim.

Some ideas here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/comments/422jcg/can_i_stop_claiming_universal_credit_without_a/

Ask if you have to start the W&HP if you change you mind after a month.
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Post by Caker on Wed May 01, 2019 9:05 pm

Under the WP Inbelieve they could delay referral if you said you had a job interview (unless I dreamed that). I wonder if this applies here.
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Post by Non Deficere on Wed May 01, 2019 10:08 pm

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Post by MrFrankZola on Thu May 02, 2019 12:15 am

Caker wrote:Under the WP Inbelieve they could delay referral if you said you had a job interview (unless I dreamed that). I wonder if this applies here.


V12
Work_and_Health_Programme_v12.0.pdf
http://data.parliament.uk/DepositedPapers/Files/DEP2019-0465/Work_and_Health_Programme_v12.0.pdf
Via  DEP2019-0465 28-03-2019
Universal Credit full service guidance, February 2019. 157 docs.
https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/business-papers/commons/deposited-papers/?house=1&search_term=Department+for+Work+and+Pensions&itemId=119004#toggle-465

'Work and Health Programme referral/allocation exemptions?'.
www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/472459/response/1145327/attach/html/2/FoI%201202%20Reply.pdf.html

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Post by Non Deficere on Thu May 02, 2019 8:09 am

MightyQunit wrote:Hi,

I have been reading and searching the forum for the last two days about this subject but there is a lot of conflicting advice on it.

I've been unemployed for nearly 2 years mainly due to me living in a crap seaside town with very few employment opportunities outside a few months seasonal work, at my next UC appointment I am going to be mandated onto the Work & Health programme, I do not know if I will be given a place yet, as I hear there are limited places, but I will begin the process at my next UC appointment and my name will go into the WHP hat.

This programme sounds like a nightmare, where you can be forced to do unpaid full time work under the cloak of "Gaining Experience..." in a job you probably have not interest in doing or pursuing, am I right in thinking this, that you can face sanctions to your benefit payments if you fail to comply and attend a work experience placement?

It seems the only way to avoid this scheme is to close down your UC claim and start a new claim 6 months later if I don't get regular employment by then, I am in the fortunate situation of being able to do this if I wanted to, if I was to close down my claim, am I right in thinking a period of 6 months would need to pass before a new claim would not be linked to an old UC claim?, and if I had started on the WHP the 15 month period you are on it would also cease if you stopped claiming UC and closed my claim?

Any advice on this is greatly appreciated, my head is spinning from all the reading I've done in the last 2 days...

Can you think of any good reasons why the programme is unsuitable for you?

Has the wc explained exactly when the programme entails and how specifically it will benefit you?

You are entitled to make representation before you are mandated to attend.

https://respectfulbenefits.forumotion.com/f9-law

I have helped many people to dodge mandatory activity. Smile
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Post by Non Deficere on Thu May 02, 2019 8:44 am

Just wondering if your potential job could be declared?

Long Term Unemployed exclusion reasonsthe potential participant is in paid employmentthe potential participants is on or has previously completed the WHPthe potential participant is in the Random Control Group for WHP

http://data.parliament.uk/DepositedPapers/Files/DEP2018-0759/Work_and_Health_Programme_v5.0.pdf

Other ideas from the link above:

Deferral criteria
The proposed deferral reasonsbeloware intended to ensure WHP LTU continues to meet the policy and value for money intentions of not sending claimants with short-term barriers to participating on WHP, or for whom the Jobcentre Plus offer remains appropriate.where potential participants have moved between conditionality groups and whose circumstances have changed-For example have had a break in claim due to work or sicknessclaimants who are close to employment and could move into work within 3 months with further support from Jobcentre Plusclaimants who are engaged in other support and provision, including Work Choice, which is likely to lead to a job outcome-For example a claimant who is being supported through alternative ESF provision or trainingclaimants, whose circumstances mean that they will not be able to participate in WHP as required, for example those with long periods of hospitalisation confirmed for the near futureclaimants who have known circumstances and changing conditionality groups
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Post by MightyQunit on Thu May 02, 2019 1:57 pm

Non Deficere wrote:

Can you think of any good reasons why the programme is unsuitable for you?

Has the wc explained exactly when the programme entails and how specifically it will benefit you?

You are entitled to make representation before you are mandated to attend.

https://respectfulbenefits.forumotion.com/f9-law

I have helped many people to dodge mandatory activity. Smile
I've rearranged my WHP initial meeting with my WC to give me a bit more time to investigate what's the best course of action.

As I understand it, if you close a claim for 28+days you need to have a income in that period of over £338, this would move you out of the intensive work search regime (IWSR) category which is what you need to break WHP linking periods to be not eligible to be mandated, if you are registered self-employed this would be easy to meet.

If you did this, after 29 days you could open up your UC claim again and the restart date for WHP to be forced/mandated on you would start from the day you reopened your UC claim, meaning another 24months before you could be mandated.

This is how I understand it to work, this UC benefit is designed to try and tie you into it even when you stop claiming it.

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Post by Caker on Thu May 02, 2019 3:26 pm

MightyQunit wrote:
Non Deficere wrote:

Can you think of any good reasons why the programme is unsuitable for you?

Has the wc explained exactly when the programme entails and how specifically it will benefit you?

You are entitled to make representation before you are mandated to attend.

https://respectfulbenefits.forumotion.com/f9-law

I have helped many people to dodge mandatory activity. Smile
I've rearranged my WHP initial meeting with my WC to give me a bit more time to investigate what's the best course of action.

As I understand it, if you close a claim for 28+days you need to have a income in that period of over £338, this would move you out of the intensive work search regime (IWSR) category which is what you need to break WHP linking periods to be not eligible to be mandated, if you are registered self-employed this would be easy to meet.

If you did this, after 29 days you could open up your UC claim again and the restart date for WHP to be forced/mandated on you would start from the day you reopened your UC claim, meaning another 24months before you could be mandated.

This is how I understand it to work, this UC benefit is designed to try and tie you into it even when you stop claiming it.

@MightyQuint
That does not sound quite right. My understanding is that the claim just needs to be closed and 29 days has to pass before you start another. It is not relevant what you earn while the claim is closed.

AFAIK, that £338 light touch regime is for people keeping their claim open whilst earning.

There seems to be confusion about what a linking period is. I believed it is a period where no claim is in place and not a period of earning during a claim.

Happy to be corrected if I got that wrong study


Last edited by Caker on Thu May 02, 2019 4:44 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : typo)
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Post by MightyQunit on Thu May 02, 2019 4:06 pm

Caker wrote:
@MightyQuint
That does not sound quite right. My understanding is that the claim just needs to be closed and 29 days has to pass before you start another. It is not relevant what you earn while the claim is closed.

AFAIK, that £338 light touch regime is for people keeking their claim open whilst earning.

There seems to be confusion about what a linking period is. I believed it is a period where no claim is in place and not a period of earning during a claim.

Happy to be corrected if I got that wrong study
How I understand it is during that 29 days break you have to be out of the IWSR category, and you do this by earning £338+, if you are still in the IWSR during the break your unemployment periods can be linked to make up 24 months and that would mandate you onto the WHP

"breaks of 29days or more. If the potential participant was in receipt of UC IWSR in the break period, we consider the claims to count towards the 24 month unemployment period".

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Post by Non Deficere on Thu May 02, 2019 4:48 pm

MQ, if you break your claim for 29 days plus you will no no longer be in the UC IWSR and won't be claiming any unemployment benefits.  You will create a new restart date, if and when you return to UC IWSR.

This is an admistrative decision and is not covered by UC regulations.


Last edited by Non Deficere on Thu May 02, 2019 6:52 pm; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : typos)
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Post by Caker on Thu May 02, 2019 4:48 pm

@MQ OK, I may have misunderstood what I read. Sorry if I caused confusion.

It seems an odd rule. Surely anyone capable of getting into a job for 29 days or any period is not exactly someone who lacks motivation or needs help getting into a job.
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Post by Non Deficere on Thu May 02, 2019 4:51 pm

You were correct Caker.
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Post by Caker on Thu May 02, 2019 5:49 pm

@ND
Thanks for clearing that up.
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Post by MightyQunit on Thu May 02, 2019 6:43 pm

Non Deficere wrote:MQ, if you break you claim for 29 days plus you will no no longer be in the UC IWSR and won't be claiming any unemployment benefits.  You will create a new restart date, if and when you return to UC IWSR.

This is an admistrative decision and is not covered by UC regulations.
So you are saying a break of 29 days is all that is needed, just stop receiving benefit for 29 days?, I hope you are right, I really do.

This fourth and final check looks at breaks of 29days or more.

If the potential participant was in receipt of UC
IWSR in the break period, we consider the claims to
count towards the 24 month unemployment period.


This text above states clearly you can be in IWSR group during a break "If the potential participant was in receipt of UC IWSR in the break period".

So how can you be in the IWSR group if you've close your claim?, to be in the IWSR when on UC you need to be earning less than £338, if you earn over this, you go into the "Light touch regime" where basically you are not expected to do 35hrs jobsearch because you are working some of the time, but they still must have contact with you and want you to try and get full time work or increase your hours to earn over £650, then they will leave you alone.

I hope I'm wrong and that it works like you say, a break is break regardless and this would stop being mandated onto WHP, but I think this rule above is to try stop people just taking a month off claiming and ineffect resetting the WHP 24 month period, they want you to have a job earning over £338, then you can restart your eligibility period to be mandated onto WHP.

This needs a FOI to find out if you stop a UC claim, are you still in the IWSR group if you are not earning over £338 a month, if DWP say once a claim is closed by the claimant, you are no longer in the IWSR group then I'll be proved wrong and it's easier to negate WHP than I thought for those LTU that are being mandated.

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Post by MightyQunit on Thu May 02, 2019 6:51 pm

Caker wrote:@MQ OK, I may have misunderstood what I read. Sorry if I caused confusion.

It seems an odd rule. Surely anyone capable of getting into a job for 29 days or any period is not exactly someone who lacks motivation or needs help getting into a job.
All about how much you are earning, if it's low they will still have to top up your pay with benefits and pay your housing costs, this seems to be the whole point of them putting you in "Intensive work search regime" or "Light touch regime" depending on how much you are earning, they won't let you get a part time job with low pay and then go on claiming UC to top up your pay and pay your housing costs without any pressure from them for you to find a full time job and stop claiming UC benefits altogether.

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Post by Non Deficere on Thu May 02, 2019 6:59 pm

MightyQunit wrote:
Non Deficere wrote:MQ, if you break your claim for 29 days plus you will no no longer be in the UC IWSR and won't be claiming any unemployment benefits.  You will create a new restart date, if and when you return to UC IWSR.

This is an admistrative decision and is not covered by UC regulations.
So you are saying a break of 29 days is all that is needed, just stop receiving benefit for 29 days?, I hope you are right, I really do.

This fourth and final check looks at breaks of 29days or more.

If the potential participant was in receipt of UC
IWSR in the break period, we consider the claims to
count towards the 24 month unemployment period.


This text above states clearly you can be in IWSR group during a break "If the potential participant was in receipt of UC IWSR in the break period".

So how can you be in the IWSR group if you've close your claim?, to be in the IWSR when on UC you need to be earning less than £338, if you earn over this, you go into the "Light touch regime" where basically you are not expected to do 35hrs jobsearch because you are working some of the time, but they still must have contact with you and want you to try and get full time work or increase your hours to earn over £650, then they will leave you alone.

I hope I'm wrong and that it works like you say, a break is break regardless and this would stop being mandated onto WHP, but I think this rule above is to try stop people just taking a month off claiming and ineffect resetting the WHP 24 month period, they want you to have a job earning over £338, then you can restart your eligibility period to be mandated onto WHP.

This needs a FOI to find out if you stop a UC claim, are you still in the IWSR group if you are not earning over £338 a month, if DWP say once a claim is closed by the claimant, you are no longer in the IWSR group then I'll be proved wrong and it's easier to negate WHP than I thought for those LTU that are being mandated.

Very few claimants will know about the linking rules.  

You cannot possibly be in the IWSR if you are not claiming UC.

24 months unemployment check
Action to take
1. The Work and Health Programme is mandatory for most claimants reaching 24 months unemployed.
2. Work coaches need to check potential participants have been unemployed for 24 months by:
identifying breaks in claims to benefit (JSA or UC (Intensive Work Search Regime))
establishing a restart date from which the 24 months starts countingusing the number of days in any breaks betweenclaims (only those less than 28 days each), to re-establish thecorrect WHP eligibility date


If you had come into some money after closing your claim you cannot be in any UC group.  You don't even have to tell DWP why you are leaving the register.  There is also the matter of losing your UC payments if you close your claim before the end of your assessment period.  



Last edited by Non Deficere on Thu May 02, 2019 9:56 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : add info)
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Post by MrFrankZola on Thu May 02, 2019 10:07 pm

Universal Credit Claim Linking Periods
16 March 2016
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/universal_credit_claim_linking_p

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Post by Non Deficere on Thu May 02, 2019 10:30 pm

MrFrankZola wrote:Universal Credit Claim Linking Periods
16 March 2016
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/universal_credit_claim_linking_p

I cannot see any reference to linking rules for programmes.

There are linking rules in the regulations for benefits, for example:

https://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forums/viewthread/3185/

I cannot find any UC linking rules at this time.
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