Re: Work and Health programme

by El-dudeareno Thu May 25, 2017 3:28 pm

Thanks for clearing that up Caker. Wink

by Absolut Fri May 26, 2017 12:02 pm

HWC Claimant booklet:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0pujttfkyr1mntn/1816%20HWC%20Claimant%20Booklet.pdf?dl=0

by Caker Fri May 26, 2017 4:35 pm

I had a read through of this form. I notice the old cliché 'barrier' is in there (Step 3 - obstacle - what is stopping you). No surprise that the question is entirely about intrinsic barriers with no mention of extrinsic barriers (they apparently don't exist in DWP fantasy land).

So the claimant is encouraged to think of something they need to change about themselves, in order to achieve their aim. The language appears calculated to inculcate a sense of culpability in the claimant, (sorry for the alliteration there) ,aka victim blaming. Can't get a job? maybe it is how you write your CV/present yourself at job interviews etc. geek

Or just maybe employers king

are spoilt for choice / able to discriminate against certain applicants, with total impunity Suspect

by Absolut Sat May 27, 2017 9:28 am

You are spot on Caker, but I think what is worse is the tone of the language. It's written in a patronising and insulting way that a lot of people with disabilities and health conditions are going to find offensive. I know I found it offensive when I read it.

by Absolut Sat May 27, 2017 9:48 am

https://dpac.uk.net/2017/05/health-work-conversation-questionnaire-comments-expert/

This form is yet another method of equating worklessness with worthlessness, and undermining the other ways disabled people contribute to society.

the language of positive psychology runs through every word of this document. One of the core principles of psychology is that intervention should only occur when recipients are able to consent freely. This process is mandatory, and It thus represents a misuse, dare I say it abuse, of power.

by Caker Sat May 27, 2017 1:26 pm

As above, the intro' on the first page, implies that it is a lack of confidence and/or motivation that is holding the person back. It also implies that the WHC can address both those issues. Sooooo patronising

The thing that demotivates me is not getting chosen when I go to job interviews. That is starting to affect my confidence. Being interviewed (and rejected) by people who were learning their times tables when I was at uni', is also not helping me very much right now.

by Absolut Sun May 28, 2017 7:31 am

Caker wrote:It also implies that the WHC can address both those issues.

Yes, the whole idea is that we just aren't trying hard enough. Twisted Evil

The whole tone of the WHC is of an adult talking down to a particularly stupid child. It's actually pretty accurate as that is how people are talked at by wcs in job centres. I hope, as it says in the DPAC article, that people are brave enough to be honest on that form and state exactly what it is that is wrong about a system that put employers' profits before people.

Caker wrote:The thing that demotivates me is not getting chosen when I go to job interviews. That is starting to affect my confidence. Being interviewed (and rejected) by people who were learning their times tables when I was at uni', is also not helping me very much right now.

I know it's easy to say "don't let the b*stards grind you down" but it really is the case that they didn't deserve you working for them. Let's face it, what sort of idiots are they for not hiring you? Most people simply want to be given a chance to prove themselves, although strictly speaking we should all stop bothering trying to impress people who are as dumb as a bag of spanners Wink

by Absolut Mon May 29, 2017 10:58 am

https://mrfrankzola.wordpress.com/2017/05/28/work-and-health-programme-all-provider-guidance-specifications-and-launch-info/

Frank has copies of all the draft provider documents.

I've been through them all and there is no difference between the old WP and the new one for JSA claimants.

In an FOI submitted by S Gwilliam (Ref: 1862 dated 26.5.17) the DWP has stated the following:

In your second request you ask for any information or guidance that former Work Programme completers will not / can not now be referred to the new Work & Health Programme. Following a search of our paper and electronic records, I have established that this information is not held by the Department. However, and to be helpful, I can confirm that Work Programme completers are not excluded from participation on the Work and Health Programme.

For ESA claimants, Chapter Two - Participant Identification:

6. Participants with a disability can be referred by DWP to the Contractor on a voluntary basis, at the most appropriate time when the criteria below are met, the participant:
· has a disability or disabilities as defined by the Equality Act 2010;
· can be helped, in the opinion of DWP, by participating in the WHP;
· if relevant, has already been helped by Jobcentre Plus with their core jobsearch activity;
· needs more support than can be provided within the standard Jobcentre Plus offer (or through other available services and provision); and
· has committed to the goal of finding employment within one year.

Please note - for participants with a disability, capacity to participate for any minimum number of hours per week/month will not form part of the decision to refer as there are no minimum hours of support/participation in the WHP.

Long Term Unemployed Participants:

14. Whether eligible participants access the WHP will be determined by a process of random allocation. If a participant is randomly allocated, they will be referred by the Work Coach to the supplier on a mandatory basis.

by Caker Wed May 31, 2017 12:35 pm

Chapter 13 - funding model

https://mrfrankzola.wordpress.com/2017/05/28/work-and-health-programme-all-provider-guidance-specifications-and-launch-info/

From chapter 13 (word doc) in the above link:-

Outcome Payments

4. For the employed, an outcome payment will be triggered when a participant earns in the (456 + 182) day period from the participant’s Start Date on WHP, the equivalent of someone working for 16 hours per week for 182 days, earning the adult rate (aged 25 or over) of the National Living Wage (NLW). Earnings data will be provided by Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs (HMRC). You will not be required to make a claim for employed outcomes.

by Absolut Wed May 31, 2017 3:10 pm

I noticed that too. They get their money a lot sooner than they did under the WP?

by Caker Wed May 31, 2017 5:10 pm

How I read it, the pimp geek

will get an outcome payment if the participant starts a job after 182 days from the start of the programme but no later than 456 days after the start of the programme, if I have understood this correctly.

For example, participant starts the programme on 1st January. Then they start a job any time between 1st July of the same year and 31st March of the following year (adjust for leap years).

So I presume that anyone starting a job after 31st March in the year after they start the programme, will not trigger an outcome payment for the pimp. scratch

It is not clear if there is an outcome payment if the participant starts a job between the start of the programme and up to 182 days after. If that is the case, the pimp geek

would actively discourage the participant from starting any job until after they had been on the programme for 182 days as there is no outcome payment if the participant starts a job before they have been on the programme for 182 days.

Does anyone else interpret the paragraph like I have, or am I just confused?

by Caker Wed May 31, 2017 5:14 pm

Additionally, the participant would not be encouraged to accept any job that was the equivalent of less than 16 hours at minimum wage, so no ZHC.

OR, would the pimp encourage the participant into any job in the hope that the outcome payment would be triggered in the event that the participant increased their hours up to the 16 before the 456 day threshold? Suspect

by ABC Wed May 31, 2017 10:49 pm

I haven't read any of the info yet but does this mean that if, for example, you start the programme and just drop out (not get a job) for whatever reason after, say, a month or so, that the providers will get a payment even if you then get a job some time later off your own efforts without any of their involvement?

by **Admin** Wed May 31, 2017 11:01 pm

theres another reference to this via frankzola's site

https://mrfrankzola.wordpress.com/2017/05/29/work-and-health-programme-who-can-be-referred-for-how-long-and-when/

Work and Health Programme (WHP) referral criteria. Work & Health Programme: @DWP says #BenefitSanctions "If they fail to take part in community benefit work placement" @keepvolvol #workfare > https://t.co/9NceSDj2t1 — refuted (@refuted) May 29, 2017 “From November 2017 the WHP will be DWP’s new contracted employment provision that will help persons who have a disability, the long-term unemployed (LTU) and specified disadvantaged groups to find sustained work.” wrote:

by Caker Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:23 am

ABC wrote:I haven't read any of the info yet but does this mean that if, for example, you start the programme and just drop out (not get a job) for whatever reason after, say, a month or so, that the providers will get a payment even if you then get a job some time later off your own efforts without any of their involvement?

I have not read all the guidance yet, but I would not be surprised to find that is the case. If anyone has read that far, then I am also keen to know the answer to that question.

If the above assumption is accurate, then I suspect the pimps will pull out all the stops to get the participant into any job (as before). However, now that payment is accessed via HMRC without the need to get that info' from the participant, I suspect that the pimps will be less focussed on monitoring activity i.e. wanting the contact details of every employer that the participant (privately) applies to. Rolling Eyes

by Absolut Thu Jun 01, 2017 1:07 pm

I think the RTI from HMRC is a load of old pretendy. If local BDC offices don't have access to RTI information (and they don't) then neither will the WHP providers this November.

by Caker Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:05 pm

Also, I can imagine that there are many employers who are not using RTI systems just yet.

Also, do the exact employer details need to be clarified in order for the outcome payment be processed? What about small employers who are paying their employees through a payroll company because they don't operate their own payroll? My understanding is that the payroll company details will show up with HMRC, because the employer is just invoiced as a client of the payroll company which discharges the NI/tax liabilities of the employer. confused

by Mary_FV Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:19 pm

Accountinweb wrote:PAYE data is shared by HMRC with DWP 4 times a day: this is why payroll reporting became Real Time Information. DWP accept HMRC data as reported by employers and use it to calculate a claimant’s UC award automatically. Where everything works perfectly, there is no requirement for any additional burden to fall on the employer. However Universal Credit is a variable benefit that tops up earnings, which means claimants can expect their awards to change. Queries are unavoidable.

http://www.accountingweb.co.uk/community/industry-update/rti-universal-credit-what-no-ones-told-you

Employers who pay £112 or less do not have to set up a PAYE scheme.
http://revenuebenefits.org.uk/universal-credit/guidance/entitlement-to-uc/rti-and-universal-credit/#What must be reported?

The H&WP can only claim an outcome for 16hr+ per week job starts.

by Absolut Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:36 pm

They may have it for UC but they don't have it for ESA or JSA. It's still all paper based.

The 16 hour figure is "the equivalent of, at min wage" because some people earn more than the minimum hourly rate, so it could be a job for fewer than 16 hours.

by Mary_FV Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:56 pm

Caker wrote:Chapter 13 - funding model

https://mrfrankzola.wordpress.com/2017/05/28/work-and-health-programme-all-provider-guidance-specifications-and-launch-info/

From chapter 13 (word doc) in the above link:-

Outcome Payments

4. For the employed, an outcome payment will be triggered when a participant earns in the (456 + 182) day period from the participant’s Start Date on WHP, the equivalent of someone working for 16 hours per week for 182 days, earning the adult rate (aged 25 or over) of the National Living Wage (NLW). Earnings data will be provided by Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs (HMRC). You will not be required to make a claim for employed outcomes.

Ah! The outcome payment is based on average income earned (16hrs x £7.50 = £120) or higher for 182 days.

I am assuming that people participating in the W&HP will be included in the HMRC requirements. Alternatively, DWP staff would have to extrapolate the data manually.

by Mary_FV Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:14 pm

A bit more info...

FE News wrote:Change: Whilst Providers will be paid based on results, DWP has pledged to automate the entire claims process; relying on Real Time Information (RTI) from HMRC to track customer progression into work and their earnings whilst in work. Providers will be paid a 30% delivery fee for each participant and the remaining 70% outcome fee when a customer reaches a certain earnings threshold while IN work.

Potential Impact: Provided DWP’s system of using RTI is effective, this should mean that Providers are able to focus resources on delivering quality interventions and In Work Support rather than tracking and claims validation. It is also likely to mean that we will see changes to DWP’s performance management regime, PAT audit processes and management information requirements. For front line advisors, an automated claims process should be a boon, freeing them from over bearing process and allowing them to spend more time and energy on delivering quality interventions.

DWP have yet to release further details on how RTI will be used, monitored and reported and the systems requirements of this new process, but one thing is clear – DWP intend WHP to be a contract that supports people rather than process driven delivery.

[/quote]

https://www.fenews.co.uk/featured-article/13283-how-will-the-work-and-health-programme-impact-the-frontline

by Caker Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:16 pm

I searched for information about RTI compliance for employers. This link appears to suggest that employers are only encouraged to use RTI.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/real-time-information-employer-compliance

Research report about the impact Real Time Information (RTI) will have on how employers deal with Pay As You Earn (PAYE).

This report also looks at how HM Revenue and Customs communicates with employers and the best approach to encourage employers to use RTI to file and pay on time.

by Mary_FV Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:49 pm

PAYE RTI OTG wrote:All employers are now required by law to submit an RTI return every time employees are paid as part of payroll arrangements. Pension providers are also affected. Although there is still some leeway for the very smallest employers and new employers when submitting their very first RTI return, the vast majority of employers or their payroll agents are now reporting PAYE information to HMRC in real time.

http://www.payerti.org/RTI-UC/what-is-paye-rti

by Caker Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:49 pm

......so most employers will be submitting info' at least once per month (or per payroll cycle).

by Absolut Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:04 am

Caker wrote:......so most employers will be submitting info' at least once per month (or per payroll cycle).

Yep, hubby's pay has been via RTI for at least a year but we still have to manually submit payslips to the sodding dole office every month. It's a pain in the arse.

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