Placements

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Placements

Post by El-dudeareno on Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:54 am



I was just wondering if anyone has had any benefit from doing one of these placements. It is just the Work-Roach  pig   seem to be pushing me into one of these schemes. I have done placements and voluntary work before in the distant past. However, I have got any nearer to securing a job through these opportunities? Therefore I was wondering if anyone has had any success from doing these, or know of anyone to whom has benefited.


In addition to this what are the rules regarding job-search and working at a placement. As I don’t want to do my 30xhrs work and then have to do another 35xhrs job search. So as not to end up on the wrong side of a sanction, due to the claimant commitment rules? You would think that they the DWP would allow for you doing a placement, but they current system I wouldn’t like to risk it? Any advice would be welcomed.  cyclops



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Re: Placements

Post by helping_hand on Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:44 pm

El-dudeareno wrote:

I was just wondering if anyone has had any benefit from doing one of these placements. It is just the Work-Roach  pig   seem to be pushing me into one of these schemes. I have done placements and voluntary work before in the distant past. However, I have got any nearer to securing a job through these opportunities? Therefore I was wondering if anyone has had any success from doing these, or know of anyone to whom has benefited.


In addition to this what are the rules regarding job-search and working at a placement. As I don’t want to do my 30xhrs work and then have to do another 35xhrs job search. So as not to end up on the wrong side of a sanction, due to the claimant commitment rules? You would think that they the DWP would allow for you doing a placement, but they current system I wouldn’t like to risk it? Any advice would be welcomed.  cyclops


Not sure how many people have secured employment following a work placement.

The level of job-search depends on the programme/scheme/activity and your circumstances.

Relevant info:

Employment or training programmes
21725 Claimants can be treated as ASE in any week they are taking part in an employment or training programme for which a training allowance is not payable (see DMG 21651). But they must be taking part in the employment or training programme for three days or more in that week1 .
1 JSA Regs, reg 19(1)(q)

21726 DMG 21725 does not apply to the employment programme known as “Work Experience”. Claimants on this programme must be ASE1 . 1 JSA Regs, reg 19(1)(q)

Employment-related course
21727 Claimants can be treated as ASE for any week that they are taking part in an employment-related course as a F/T student (see DMG Chapter 30). But claimants can only be treated as ASE for this reason for a maximum of
1. two weeks for each course and
2. one course in any period of twelve months1 .
1 JSA Regs, reg 19(1)(a) 21728
To be treated as ASE they must be taking part in the employment-related course for three days or more in each week1 . 1 JSA Regs, reg 19(1)(a)


Time engaged in other activities
21648 Claimants who take part in one or more of the activities in DMG 21634 7. do not have as much time available to them to seek employment as other claimants. Claimants are not expected to give up these activities so that they can devote more time to seeking employment. The time they spend engaged in these activities should be taken into account when deciding what steps they could reasonably be expected to take in that week.
21649 The DM should find out the precise times that the claimant was engaged in the activities in DMG 21634. Those activities may affect the claimant's ability to take those steps that can usually only be taken during normal office hours, for example visiting employment agencies, the Jobcentre Plus office or prospective employers.

Reasonably be expected to have to take
21632 What claimants can reasonably be expected to do varies from claimant to claimant, and often varies from week to week. When deciding whether claimants have taken steps that it is reasonable to expect them to take the DM should consider the
1. nature and conditions of employment that it is reasonable to expect them to seek and
2. steps that are reasonable to expect a claimant to take to seek that employment.
21633 What can reasonably be expected of a claimant may change during their entitlement to JSA. For example, a claimant who visits the Jobcentre Plus office every week for four months to read the advertised display may be unsuccessful in getting employment. Eventually the DM may determine that
1. in the claimant's case it is no longer reasonable for the claimant to continue to seek employment in this way and
2. it would be reasonable to expect the claimant to take other steps to seek employment.
21634 When determining whether claimants have taken the steps that they can reasonably be expected to take, the DM should consider all the circumstances of the case
1 . Matters that must be taken into account are
1. the claimant's skills, qualifications and abilities and
2. the claimant's physical or mental limitations and
3. the time that has passed since the claimant was last in employment and
4. the claimant's work experience and
5. the steps that the claimant has taken in previous weeks and the effectiveness of those steps in improving their chance of getting employment and
6. the availability and location of vacancies in employment and
7. any time during which the claimant was
7.1 engaged
7.1.a in crewing or launching of a lifeboat or
7.1.b in the performance of duty as a P/T member of a fire brigade or
7.1.c during an emergency in duties for the benefit of others and
7.1.d in duties as a member of any reserve force as in
Appendix 1 to DMG Chapter 26 and
7.2 attending an Outward Bound course and
7.3 in the case of a blind person, taking part in a course of training in the use of guide dogs and
7.4 taking part in training in the use of aids to overcome any physical or mental limitations that will improve their chances of getting employment and
7.5 taking part in an employment related course as a P/T student (see DMG 21238)
DMG 21238) and
7.6 doing voluntary work and the extent that it has improved their chances
of getting employment and
7.7 taking part in an employment or training programme, for less than three
days in that week, where a training allowance is not payable and

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/654415/dmgch21.pdf
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Re: Placements

Post by Caker on Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:29 pm

El-Dude, are these placements mandatory?
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Re: Placements

Post by Absolut on Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:19 am

I did voluntary work in a stockroom for nearly 2 years and another 6 months in an admin position for another local charitable organisation. Neither of the positions led to employment. However, I do have 2 references I can draw on.

A DWP placement isn't a good idea. You are much better off choosing your own voluntary work to do because if you leave you can't be sanctioned and you can also choose your own hours and where it will be etc.
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Re: Placements

Post by helping_hand on Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:33 am

Just for info...

There is only one scheme (SBWA) which includes a work placement, but the work experience element isn't mandatory.

Current mandatory programmes and schemes (JSA)

34847 The following schemes are prescribed as schemes in which claimants are required
to participate under relevant legislation1
1. Day One Support for Young People
2. The Derbyshire Mandatory Youth Activity Programme
3. Full-time Training Flexibility
4. New Enterprise Allowance
5. The sector-based work academy
6. Skills Conditionality
7. The Work Programme
8. Community Work Placements Now ended.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/626756/dmgch34.pdf

You cannot be directed via a Jobseeker's Direction to participate in voluntary work or work experience.


Last edited by helping_hand on Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Placements

Post by Caker on Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:26 am

Thanks HH, it is always good to get an update Very Happy
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Re: Placements

Post by El-dudeareno on Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:54 pm

Caker wrote:El-Dude, are these placements mandatory?

@Caker. That was the first question I asked my Work Roach  Basketball . To which it is 'voluntary'...

Thanks for the reply's, there seem to be a lot of "can reasonably" from the DWP which is where I get lost in the fog so to speak of what is allowed and what isn't. I thought the time frame was approx 17x hrs for voluntary work and the rest of the 18x hr (35hrs jobsearch a week  Rolling Eyes )?
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Re: Placements

Post by helping_hand on Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:33 pm

El-dudeareno wrote:
Caker wrote:El-Dude, are these placements mandatory?

@Caker. That was the first question I asked my Work Roach  Basketball . To which it is 'voluntary'...

Thanks for the reply's, there seem to be a lot of "can reasonably" from the DWP which is where I get lost in the fog so to speak of what is allowed and what isn't. I thought the time frame was approx 17x hrs for voluntary work and the rest of the 18x hr (35hrs jobsearch a week  Rolling Eyes )?

If you are are claiming JSA there is no limit to the hours you can volunteer providing you are available and actively seeking paid work.

Following a recent Tribunal case I was involved with, JCP expected too much from the claimant who was committed to 30 hours of volunteering per week.

The hours you spend seeking work is irrelevant, it is the quality of the steps you take that is of paramount importance (JSA regs).
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Evaluations of welfare-to-work policies and workfare schemes

Post by helping_hand on Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:42 pm

Conclusions
In general, evaluations of welfare-to-work policies and workfare
schemes have found that the strictest schemes are less likely to work,
largely because they can deter all people from claiming benefit, even
those most in need, without improving their chances of finding
employment.47 The OECD, in a 2005 review of welfare-to-work policies,
concluded that moderate workfare requirements resulted in better
results.
Research from the countries with experience of workfare schemes,
particularly the US, UK, Australia and New Zealand, show little evidence
that workfare raises the employment prospects of participants.48 There
is also some evidence to suggest that workfare is less effective in getting
people into employment when the labour market is weak.49 However,
workfare can, via the motivation or deterrence effect, reduce the
number of people claiming benefits.50

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:crqbAN534xMJ:researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN06249/SN06249.pdf+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk


Last edited by helping_hand on Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:59 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Placements

Post by Caker on Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:46 pm

......Also, free labour reduces the need for paid jobs Evil or Very Mad
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Re: Placements

Post by El-dudeareno on Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:16 am

Helping Hand wrote:If you are are claiming JSA there is no limit to the hours you can volunteer providing you are available and actively seeking paid work.


Thanks for the reply, also you know what the reg's are for Univ-Credit regarding hours out of interest? Question
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Re: Placements

Post by helping_hand on Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:42 pm

Here you go El-dudeareno:

Work search requirement - all reasonable action
95.—(1) A claimant is to be treated as not having complied with a work search requirement to take all reasonable action for the purpose of obtaining paid work in any week unless—
(a)either—
(i)the time which the claimant spends taking action for the purpose of obtaining paid work is at least the claimant’s expected number of hours per week minus any relevant deductions, or
(ii)the Secretary of State is satisfied that the claimant has taken all reasonable action for the purpose of obtaining paid work despite the number of hours that the claimant spends taking such action being lower than the expected number of hours per week; and
(b)that action gives the claimant the best prospects of obtaining work.
(2) In this regulation “relevant deductions” means the total of any time agreed by the Secretary of State—
(a)for the claimant to carry out paid work, voluntary work, a work preparation requirement, or voluntary work preparation in that week; or
(b)for the claimant to deal with temporary childcare responsibilities, a domestic emergency, funeral arrangements or other temporary circumstances.
(3) For the purpose of paragraph (2)(a) the time agreed by the Secretary of State for the claimant to carry out voluntary work must not exceed 50% of the claimant’s expected number of hours per week.
(4) “Voluntary work preparation” means particular action taken by a claimant and agreed by the Secretary of State for the purpose of making it more likely that the claimant will obtain paid work, but which is not specified by the Secretary of State as a work preparation requirement under section 16 of the Act.

The expected number of hours is usually 35hrs per week unless a person has particular circumstances...

(2) In this regulation “relevant deductions” means the total of any time agreed by the Secretary of State—
(a)for the claimant to carry out paid work, voluntary work, a work preparation requirement, or voluntary work preparation in that week; or
(b)for the claimant to deal with temporary childcare responsibilities, a domestic emergency, funeral arrangements or other temporary circumstances.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2013/9780111531938/regulation/95

Edit:

There will also be some circumstances, where requirements won’t be applied,
for short periods of time. In certain circumstances, work search and availability
requirements cannot be applied. Regulations give a list of the particular
circumstances where this may be appropriate. This applies to claimants:
 with a self certificate/medical evidence of illness of up to 14 days
 receiving medical treatment outside of Great Britain
 on jury service or attending court or a tribunal as a witness
 whose partner, child or qualifying young person has died
 participating in structured recovery for alcohol or drugs
 who has in the last 6 months been a victim of domestic violence
 who are prisoners
 with a protection order
 engaged in a public duty.
And at adviser discretion:
 where the claimant is carrying out work preparation or voluntary work
preparation


https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/163018/response/398294/attach/3/CC%20Narrative%20short.pdf
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Re: Placements

Post by oneman on Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:44 pm

El-dudeareno wrote:

I was just wondering if anyone has had any benefit from doing one of these placements. It is just the Work-Roach  pig   seem to be pushing me into one of these schemes. I have done placements and voluntary work before in the distant past. However, I have got any nearer to securing a job through these opportunities? Therefore I was wondering if anyone has had any success from doing these, or know of anyone to whom has benefited.


In addition to this what are the rules regarding job-search and working at a placement. As I don’t want to do my 30xhrs work and then have to do another 35xhrs job search. So as not to end up on the wrong side of a sanction, due to the claimant commitment rules? You would think that they the DWP would allow for you doing a placement, but they current system I wouldn’t like to risk it? Any advice would be welcomed.  cyclops





El-dudeareno. After being forced onto the work programme for 4 years. (IN TOTAL)
I'm now fully quallified to be unemployed!
I'm not kidding. They gave me certificates! ( well they offered to print them off for me but I refused them as a waste of time/paper and printer ink. )
Perhaps I should chase them up and request copies from AVANTA.
That would be interesting to see. I'll ask my work roach. Smile

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Re: Placements

Post by Brutus on Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:56 am


Incredibly I know someone that managed to get a permanent position from a placement.
It date back several years and this friend of mine was obliged to do two months of it.
However at the end a job, she's still doing, was offered.

The fact that is such an exception makes it worth remembering.
As far as I know, hardly ever a voluntary activity lead to a job and even less any compulsory one.
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Re: Placements

Post by El-dudeareno on Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:11 pm

And yet the JCP/WPP, seem to think that 'placements' are the Golden-Path to rejoining the jobs market. To which it seem they are not, from your postings?

I was wondering the scale of this exploitation No  in the UK? Maybe the DWP would have some record of this, but it might cost too much to find out from an FOI.. Suspect
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Re: Placements

Post by Brutus on Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:21 pm


 The scale of the exploitation will be probably never known in its entirety.
The use of contractors and a medley of overlapping programs were engineered to provide revenues for the contractors (both directly and indirectly by providing indentured labour) and instil fear in the claimants.

The same principle that applied to the workhouses of yesteryears.

Bot I and TT had been subjected to months of modern slavery and in my case, a blatant disregard for the law by a contractor that made direct use of its forced labour to profit and unfairly compete commercially.

The total number will probably run in the hundreds of thousand.



 
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Re: Placements

Post by Absolut on Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:49 am

I am unable to find the original pdf but I made a note of some SBWA outcomes data. The document, written by the DWP was concerning "sector based academies and work experience trials for older people". In it I found the following:

This report is based on qualitative research with 60 trial participants and 19 host employers, and quantitative survey research with 125 sbwa and 386 WE participants, and 600 non-participants who are similar to participants. Research fieldwork took place between March and June 2016, after the trials were completed.

The main reason why participants took part in either trial was because they thought it would help them to get a job (mentioned by 25 per cent of WE participants and 44 per cent of sbwa participants).

Over half of participants, 54 per cent, reported that their work placements had lasted for at least four weeks, including 23 per cent who reported that the placements were longer at eight weeks or more. Retail placements were most common: 33 per cent of WE participants did their placement in a charity shop, and a further 12 per cent did their work placement in another type of shop.

Forty per cent of sbwa participants reported being in paid work following the trial.

In other words 60% did not.

Reported employment outcomes for older participants were lower compared to the earlier survey of 18 to 24 year-olds (45 per cent of young sbwa participants and 36 per cent of WE participants were in work).

nearly half of participants aged 45 plus (45 per cent) said they did not get the chance to learn new skills while on their placement – this finding was much higher than that reported by WE participants aged 18 to 24 in the previous research (25 per cent).

Employment outcomes reported by older participants were lower than in the previous research with 18 to 24 year-olds: 45 per cent of young sbwa and 36 per cent of young WE participants were in work at the time they were surveyed, following the trial. Importantly, more young participants reported being offered a job by their host employer (10 per cent compared to five per cent of sbwa participants aged 45 plus, 15 per cent compared to four per cent of WE participants aged 45 plus). The relatively high proportion of charity shop placements within the WE programme for older workers is an explanatory factor for some of these differences.
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Re: Placements

Post by helping_hand on Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:07 am

Duplicate post


Last edited by helping_hand on Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:31 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Duplicate post)
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Re: Placements

Post by El-dudeareno on Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:47 am

Pg 44. It shows from their own figures that WE (work experience) doesn’t lead to paid employment.  



And benefits gained from placements 25% None…  



Thanks for the link Caker   lol!

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/584663/sector-based-work-academies-and-work-experience-trials-for-older-claimants.pdf
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Re: Placements

Post by Absolut on Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:05 am

Yeah, that's the one lol. Says it all really doesn't it? No, placements don't lead to paid employment.
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Re: Placements

Post by El-dudeareno on Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:53 pm

I am tempted to send the Work-Roach  clown  a link to the dwp attachment, highlighting the part about placement/WE and how effective they are at getting people into employment. Rolling Eyes
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Re: Placements

Post by Absolut on Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:59 am

El-dudeareno wrote:I am tempted to send the Work-Roach  clown  a link to the dwp attachment, highlighting the part about placement/WE and how effective they are at getting people into employment. Rolling Eyes

lol even if you did they would deny their own employer's research Wink
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Re: Placements

Post by El-dudeareno on Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:32 am

Here's and article about Long term unpaid internship, would these rules apply to 'placements', if the bill is passed?   cyclops

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/dec/18/tory-chris-holmes-calls-for-hmrc-to-act-over-long-unpaid-internships
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Re: Placements

Post by Absolut on Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:39 am

There's probably an exemption in place for DWP placements.
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Re: Placements

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