Jobseekers Directives JSD

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Re: Jobseekers Directives JSD

Post by helping_hand on Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:01 pm

Admin wrote:i believe this reference as there thoughts

I’m recording the conversation covertly.

to the jcp manager they was only taking notes on the notepad or paper which you can do

I’ve never seen this person before in my life.
I make a note of the name given, “Why are you writing down my name?”

so the claimant hasnt quoted they was recording the interview with the manager only taking down notes

I believe you're right g. I am very tired and will refrain from posting! silent
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Re: Jobseekers Directives JSD

Post by Rowratty on Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:01 pm

@HH
I’m recording the conversation covertly...I didn't say this to the manager.
If you are covertly recording someone why would you tell them?

@Caker
"...JC worker made an assumption that you were recording, based on no evidence whatsoever. You have been penalised based upon zero evidence of any offence"
Your comment is correct.

@Admin
I've not yet received a second letter.
I don't have access to a scanner so I'll try to type out the whole letter for you.
SAR request went by recorded delivery this morning
My e-mail to phil.higginson@dwp.gsi.gov.uk was to the wrong District Manager so I've resent it to nick.browning@jobcentreplus.gsi.gov.uk No reply as yet.

The only other information is that the police will be called if I enter the building and I could be prosecuted.
Nothing about appealing or reconsideration.
The letter states:
"We will not accept any enquiries regarding this matter made by telephone or by Email..."
There's a bit about the Data Protection Act and safeguarding other DWP customers.
"If you do need to visit you must first write to inform us and then report to a screened off area..."
A bit about notifying other organisations, Local Authority etc.
and that the ban will be reviewed in twelve months time.

No signature

Site Manager
JCP

And that's it.

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Re: Jobseekers Directives JSD

Post by Admin on Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:23 pm

i see its the generic letter from dwp as someone will not sign that document at all

i do wonder why they wont put there name to such a document other than

site manager jcp

im glad ive asked you to type the letter out as its now looking like you have a 12 months ban that can be reviewed in 12 months time

its now looking like because you wouldnt supply jcp with your email address and by sending your advisor these documents that they will force this by banning a claimant from the jcp offices

in doing so forcing you to send them this way

Rowratty wrote:Hi,

@Admin...I'm on JSA. Thanks for the document links.

My previous WC took my CV, re-edited it, copied my NI and D.O.B from LMS on to their version of what my CV should look like and then e-mailed it to a third party!
I complained, my WC was transferred to other duties and now I have this S*ite to deal with.

I'm sure all this is vexatious.

29. After a misunderstanding regarding the use of customer e-mail and data protection, my then Work Coach was, I am told, “reassigned to other duties” and during a period of four months I attended WSR interviews with almost every other Work Coach employed at JCP.

30. After this four month “cooling off” period, I was finally assigned to my current Work Coach who began our first 20 minute WSR by revealing confidential and operational JCP information relating to my previous Work Coach. (Investigation, disciplinary action, reassignment of duties)

to note this is not the first time however from my reading theyve been after your blood for a while after the last advisor trouble you had
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Re: Jobseekers Directives JSD

Post by Absolut on Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:14 am

Ok. Not only was Rowratty sidelined into a private room with no prior warning there can be no health and safety issue when a DWP worker is behind glass. How can anyone harass anyone else when both people are separated by a barrier?

Asking someone their name is not harassment.

Recording someone covertly without their permission is not harassment and it's not illegal either no matter what the DWP claims.

DWP Guidance states that filming / sound recording is prohibited in our offices without permission. Recordings by customers during interviews, telephone calls etc.. This does not mean that Claimants filming within DWP Premises are in some way breaching the Health & Safety Act, however, it does mean that in order to ensure the DWP does not breach the Act itself, it needs to have certain rules and procedures in place to protect its staff as filming /sound recording can have negative and stress-inducing effects on staff members.

The only reason why covert sound recording of DWP employees is seen as negative for them and "stress inducing" is it enables claimants to catch them acting like insane lunatics. Prohibiting recording also has nothing at all to do with the DWP not breaching the Act themselves. They are all culpable for the massive distress and health problems they cause for everyone who walks through their doors where they take no notice of Health and Safety whatsoever. Every time I go to sign on they ask why I can't sign upstairs. Each and every time I have to remind them that I am disabled and couldn't get down 47 steps quickly in an emergency.  They clearly see me limping yet that action does not get through the fog surrounding their brains. Health and Safety Act my arse lol. It's no better than toilet paper as far as they are concerned, all of which can be turned back on them Wink

If certain claimants persistently film members of staff and this causes those staff members to feel threatened, alarmed or distressed, it is arguable that the claimant is breaching the ‘Protection From Harassment Act 1997’ and this carries both civil and criminal penalties. Please note that this would only be the case in the more extreme cases and would usually be accompanied by other anti-social behaviour.

The reverse is also true - they are also subject to the Harassment Act 1997.

Claimants need to be aware that they do not have an unfettered right to access DWP offices and do so under what is referred to as an implied licence (an agreement giving permission for a person to do something). This licence can be revoked if claimants do not abide by the rules set by the DWP to protect its employees and the personal data of its other claimants. It is also important to bear in mind that the rules also exist to ensure the smooth running of the DWP and activities which undermine this need to be curbed where possible.

In Rowratty's case, due to the meeting taking place in a private room with a barrier between the DWP employee and the claimant and no other people being present there was no breach of the DPA. Asking a manager for their name is not a breach of their privacy rights either.

Locking someone in a private room is illegal and if Rowratty has recorded the sound of being unable to exit that room I would investigate what charge could be leveled at the DWP concerning that illegal action.
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Re: Jobseekers Directives JSD

Post by Caker on Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:06 am

Absolut wrote:Locking someone in a private room is illegal and if Rowratty has recorded the sound of being unable to exit that room I would investigate what charge could be leveled at the DWP concerning that illegal action.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_imprisonment


If sufficient proof is available then I would be exploring this route under the circumstances.
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Re: Jobseekers Directives JSD

Post by Admin on Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:19 pm

Absolut wrote:

If certain claimants persistently film members of staff and this causes those staff members to feel threatened, alarmed or distressed, it is arguable that the claimant is breaching the ‘Protection From Harassment Act 1997’ and this carries both civil and criminal penalties. Please note that this would only be the case in the more extreme cases and would usually be accompanied by other anti-social behaviour.

The reverse is also true - they are also subject to the Harassment Act 1997.

Claimants need to be aware that they do not have an unfettered right to access DWP offices and do so under what is referred to as an implied licence (an agreement giving permission for a person to do something). This licence can be revoked if claimants do not abide by the rules set by the DWP to protect its employees and the personal data of its other claimants. It is also important to bear in mind that the rules also exist to ensure the smooth running of the DWP and activities which undermine this need to be curbed where possible.

In Rowratty's case, due to the meeting taking place in a private room with a barrier between the DWP employee and the claimant and no other people being present there was no breach of the DPA. Asking a manager for their name is not a breach of their privacy rights either.

Locking someone in a private room is illegal and if Rowratty has recorded the sound of being unable to exit that room I would investigate what charge could be leveled at the DWP concerning that illegal action.

first off locking a claimant inside of a room in order to protect other claimants is perfectly reasonable
or to hold a claimant until the police arrive due to threats of violence or actual violence is allowed

however security should have been present or soon called to the room then it becomes under reasonable grounds unless escorted off the building

filming a public servant eg: police

http://crimebodge.com/protect-your-rights-to-record-the-police/

there is just one difference recording in jcp offices with video would be held under the data protection act

audio is different

step out of the building and you are subject to this

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4773369/jobcentre-dwp-staff-sex-act-camera-office/
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Re: Jobseekers Directives JSD

Post by Tarquin Flotsam on Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:55 pm

Sorry to hear about all the crap they're throwing at you, Rowratty. I had problems with my previous JCP, seemingly being singled out for constant harrassment by them and getting unlawful JSDs & my JSA being suspended, but it never went to the extremes you're currently suffering, though I do believe if I hadn't transferred to another JCP it could have escalated to what you're now going through.

Plenty of good advice you've been given, all I can add is that if I were in your shoes I'd get my local MP involved ASAP, I just hope he isn't a fecking Tory!
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Re: Jobseekers Directives JSD

Post by Caker on Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:13 pm

Admin wrote:
Absolut wrote:

If certain claimants persistently film members of staff and this causes those staff members to feel threatened, alarmed or distressed, it is arguable that the claimant is breaching the ‘Protection From Harassment Act 1997’ and this carries both civil and criminal penalties. Please note that this would only be the case in the more extreme cases and would usually be accompanied by other anti-social behaviour.

The reverse is also true - they are also subject to the Harassment Act 1997.

Claimants need to be aware that they do not have an unfettered right to access DWP offices and do so under what is referred to as an implied licence (an agreement giving permission for a person to do something). This licence can be revoked if claimants do not abide by the rules set by the DWP to protect its employees and the personal data of its other claimants. It is also important to bear in mind that the rules also exist to ensure the smooth running of the DWP and activities which undermine this need to be curbed where possible.

In Rowratty's case, due to the meeting taking place in a private room with a barrier between the DWP employee and the claimant and no other people being present there was no breach of the DPA. Asking a manager for their name is not a breach of their privacy rights either.

Locking someone in a private room is illegal and if Rowratty has recorded the sound of being unable to exit that room I would investigate what charge could be leveled at the DWP concerning that illegal action.

first off locking a claimant inside of a room in order to protect other claimants is perfectly reasonable
or to hold a claimant until the police arrive due to threats of violence or actual violence is allowed

however security should have been present or soon called to the room then it becomes under reasonable grounds unless escorted off the building

filming a public servant eg: police

http://crimebodge.com/protect-your-rights-to-record-the-police/

there is just one difference recording in jcp offices with video would be held under the data protection act

audio is different

step out of the building and you are subject to this

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4773369/jobcentre-dwp-staff-sex-act-camera-office/



Except locking the door was not reasonable in the circumstances. There was no evidence of danger to any person or property. The incident was fabricated; JC staff are good at that.

If there had been a real incident, the police would have been called and CCTV evidence would exist.
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Re: Jobseekers Directives JSD

Post by Admin on Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:37 pm

exactly im trying to explain what could happen but in this case its out of context to what has or could have been claimed by jcp

as goes for harassment it cant be proven either even by audio recording its not harassment its using covert recording to prove jcp are not following proticol but only problem its a one off use

using a video recorder shouldnt be allowed within jcp its different regs for that even with cctv you have to be careful with video evidence and also sound evidence its such a grey area

audio can be used though
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Re: Jobseekers Directives JSD

Post by Rowratty on Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:09 am

Of to my WSR in a couple of hours, not much sleep, bit worried.
Still no letter informing me what I should expect when I arrive...I'll just see what happens.

I don't have sound of me trying to get out of the room and I don't have the names of the G4S who unlocked the door, I suppose requesting a copy of their CCTV footage would be ignored.

I did get quite cross with my WC but I'm never violent nor do I swear.

Caker is quite right...
"If there had been a real incident, the police would have been called and CCTV evidence would exist."

Oh well, I'll make a cup of tea and get my stuff sorted.
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Re: Jobseekers Directives JSD

Post by Caker on Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:21 am

This topic is very interesting and I am keen to see how it develops.

However, we are now discussing a quite different topic to the one in the title.

In order not to get too long, it might be a good idea to start a new thread to continue this discussion. Just a thought. Smile
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Re: Jobseekers Directives JSD

Post by Admin on Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:42 am

cctv evidence would be lost in the system only time its not is when jcp take you to court its quickly supplied so cps can use it as evidence

is your work search requirement ( WSR ) held at jcp offices by any chance as officially your banned from the jcp offices dont cause a scene just record them stating that your banned and ask for there name
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Re: Jobseekers Directives JSD

Post by Rowratty on Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:54 pm

Arrived, met by two G4S and escorted to the screened off area told to wait. Door locked to 'protect' other DWP customers. G4S outside the door said he would unlock the door if I knocked.

Interview with Site Manager. I am not allowed on the premises without an appointment in writing and I must not go in the open plan area of the building. I must wait outside until G4S escort me to the private area.

The JSD has been cancelled but maybe will be reviewed at a later date.

I'm not allowed to voice record without written permission, not even in the screened off private area so every WSR from now on I'm going to ask for written permission and an explanation as to why they refuse, which they will.

My ban will be reviewed in three months, any harassment or intimidation will involve the Police being called. So if my 'delicate' WC can't cope with me then any excuse will do and the police will be called.

I expect that my WC will attempt to provoke me at my next WSR in two weeks time, I'll try to keep it cool and calm. They seem to have backed off a little, I don't really mind a private room, waiting outside is a bit stupid but I'll let them play their little game.

I'm going to continue to covertly record interviews, they can't search me and confiscate my phone, and now that I'm locked in a private room I can't be in breach of the DPA.
I must remember to put my phone on silent!  Very Happy

Thank you all for your help and support, I've no idea what I would have done without it.

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Re: Jobseekers Directives JSD

Post by Jara on Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:14 pm

I don't think you should bother putting your phone on silent. Every good recording app are silent, there are no reason for them to believe a notification sound means you are recording. In fact, tell them it's a cell phone.. and those things sometimes receives texts and emails.

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Re: Jobseekers Directives JSD

Post by helping_hand on Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:58 pm

Rowratty wrote:Arrived, met by two G4S and escorted to the screened off area told to wait. Door locked to 'protect' other DWP customers. G4S outside the door said he would unlock the door if I knocked.

Interview with Site Manager. I am not allowed on the premises without an appointment in writing and I must not go in the open plan area of the building. I must wait outside until G4S escort me to the private area.

The JSD has been cancelled but maybe will be reviewed at a later date.

I'm not allowed to voice record without written permission, not even in the screened off private area so every WSR from now on I'm going to ask for written permission and an explanation as to why they refuse, which they will.

My ban will be reviewed in three months, any harassment or intimidation will involve the Police being called. So if my 'delicate' WC can't cope with me then any excuse will do and the police will be called.

I expect that my WC will attempt to provoke me at my next WSR in two weeks time, I'll try to keep it cool and calm. They seem to have backed off a little, I don't really mind a private room, waiting outside is a bit stupid but I'll let them play their little game.

I'm going to continue to covertly record interviews, they can't search me and confiscate my phone, and now that I'm locked in a private room I can't be in breach of the DPA.
I must remember to put my phone on silent!  Very Happy

Thank you all for your help and support, I've no idea what I would have done without it.


Thanks for your frank report and update Rowratty!

I am hoping your interventions will be less stressful for the time being.

A ban can be a positive outcome in certain circumstances!

We will continue to support you in whatever way we can!

All the best!
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Re: Jobseekers Directives JSD

Post by Admin on Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:55 pm

Rowratty wrote:Arrived, met by two G4S and escorted to the screened off area told to wait. Door locked to 'protect' other DWP customers. G4S outside the door said he would unlock the door if I knocked.

Interview with Site Manager. I am not allowed on the premises without an appointment in writing and I must not go in the open plan area of the building. I must wait outside until G4S escort me to the private area.

The JSD has been cancelled but maybe will be reviewed at a later date.

I'm not allowed to voice record without written permission, not even in the screened off private area so every WSR from now on I'm going to ask for written permission and an explanation as to why they refuse, which they will.

My ban will be reviewed in three months, any harassment or intimidation will involve the Police being called. So if my 'delicate' WC can't cope with me then any excuse will do and the police will be called.

I expect that my WC will attempt to provoke me at my next WSR in two weeks time, I'll try to keep it cool and calm. They seem to have backed off a little, I don't really mind a private room, waiting outside is a bit stupid but I'll let them play their little game.

I'm going to continue to covertly record interviews, they can't search me and confiscate my phone, and now that I'm locked in a private room I can't be in breach of the DPA.
I must remember to put my phone on silent!  Very Happy

Thank you all for your help and support, I've no idea what I would have done without it.


thankyou for informing us of your outcome

i would advise a recording device if you can do have 2 systems one if they ask to see the other recording

something like this

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Digital-Sound-Voice-Recorder-8GB-Rechargeable-Steel-Dictaphone-MP3-Player-Record/331139930251?hash=item4d197a588b:g:AlgAAOSwmOJaHSCJ

an interesting thing here if jsd been cancelled how do you prove your jobsearch to jcp to get paid every 2 weeks for the next 3 months before your review again

other than actually sending it to jcp via email therefore forcing you to submit by email unless there going to use the wsr every 2 weeks

all you will get is a letter saying you cant record as your not a data controller but you can either subvertally or by informing them which i wouldnt do

dont be provoked get yourself a folder with some good foi's that prove everything they throw at you cant be used you will see them lose it and get so frustrated

oh and your escourted in as they dont want you informing other jobseekers of there rights had fun with that one just wait till you get why are you escourted in the building all the time
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Re: Jobseekers Directives JSD

Post by Rowratty on Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:26 pm

@Admin
The JSD has been cancelled, the ban will be reviewed in three months but I must still attend WSR every two weeks.
I'll keep taking in my spreadsheets and e-mails as proof of ASE. See 12. on page one. I think my WC will try to find some other way to get me to send every single job application form to their e-mail account... Rolling Eyes Next WSR appointment is 14th December.
Thanks for all you help.  rendeer
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