Jobseekers Directives JSD

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Re: Jobseekers Directives JSD

Post by Rowratty on Sun Nov 26, 2017 4:35 pm

@Admin & @Caker
I think you're right, my letter threatening action is a bit OTT, I'll hold back for now.

@Absolut
I don't understand how the manager can raise a FTP. I've attended the interview, I have all my ASE evidence plus e-mails from employers and I'm answering their questions.

"The Adviser tries to establish the reason why the claimant is not participating in the interview"
It was the manager that FTP, they shouted "harassment" and terminated the interview when I refused to show my phone.
How can refusing to show a phone be FTP?

I believe that the JSD (See above) was unlawful therefore I did not e-mail the documents asked for, that's not FTP either.
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Re: Jobseekers Directives JSD

Post by Admin on Sun Nov 26, 2017 4:56 pm

its been done before where they have allowed the jsa claimant to sign then claim an ftp against the claimant

we already have an appeal letter against this upon this site

and i agree with you its neither harrasement or a claim of ftp not to pull your phone out of your pocket or handbag all because it beeped inside of there

the only part that they have you upon is recording without there consent be warned some jcp offices refuse to even sign you on if your found to be recording or even admit that you are

at moment there not aware of this fact dont admit to this but type it out just incase you may need it as evidence as you can give word for word account

take a look at these references for yourself

http://respectfulbenefits.forumotion.com/t337-legal-use-of-a-jobseeker-s-direction

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Re: Jobseekers Directives JSD

Post by Absolut on Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:17 am

Rowratty wrote:@Absolut
I don't understand how the manager can raise a FTP. I've attended the interview, I have all my ASE evidence plus e-mails from employers and I'm answering their questions.

"The Adviser tries to establish the reason why the claimant is not participating in the interview"
It was the manager that FTP, they shouted "harassment" and terminated the interview when I refused to show my phone.
How can refusing to show a phone be FTP?

I believe that the JSD (See above) was unlawful therefore I did not e-mail the documents asked for, that's not FTP either.

I am not saying that you were FTP, only that it is an avenue that is open to them. You need to see if a doubt is raised and what the reason for that doubt is before firing off any more complaints. DWP staff tend to raise FTP on anything they like due to the vague way in which "answering questions" is listed in the DM's handbook. The passage in the DM's handbook isn't actually based on any legislation so it's one of those cases of "making it up as they go along".

You were set up and will have to wait and see what happens next.
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Re: Jobseekers Directives JSD

Post by Rowratty on Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:54 pm

Letter this morning...I've been banned from entering JCP offices. I'm not allowed to phone them or send an e-mail, I must make a written request if I need to visit the JCP office. No explanation in the letter on how I'm supposed to make a declaration. I'll turn up on Thursday and see what happens.
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Re: Jobseekers Directives JSD

Post by Admin on Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:31 pm

on a quick review has someone put there name to the document at all ?

on a quick look read this and this

https://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forums/viewthread/5382/#22252

from above reference

http://www.katebelgrave.com/2013/09/jobcentre-anger-and-bans-what-a-mess/

an foi request

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/jobcentre_bans_2

Dear Department for Work and Pensions,

Can you tell me under what legislation gives DWP the authority to ban claimants from Job Centre premises?

What right of appeal do claimants who believe the ban is unfair and without foundation have?

Is the DWP aware that banning claimants without a fair hearing is an offence under the Human Rights Act?

"Article 6 - Right to a fair trial

A fair and public hearing (or trial) You have the right to a fair and public hearing if:

you are charged with a criminal offence and have to go to court or
a public authority is making a decision that has a decisive impact upon your civil rights or obligations."

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/311432/response/762500/attach/html/2/207%20Johnston%20final%20V1%201.doc.html

Dear Department for Work and Pensions,

Please could you tell me how many Benefit Claimants have been banned from Jobcentres between 2005 and December 2015?
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Re: Jobseekers Directives JSD

Post by helping_hand on Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:43 pm

A ban can sometimes be a blessing!

You should receive a second letter in regards to your attendance in a secure area/postal signing in due course.

Banning Orders
172. In the event of a banning order against a customer or claimant, Nominated Managers need to make
alternative arrangements for them to contact the office on benefit related issues and ensure that they are
advised promptly of these arrangements as details will not be included in the banning letter.


https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/336823/response/828363/attach/8/Unacceptable%20Customer%20Behaviour%20Guidance%20June%202016%20FOI%20uncontrolled.pdf
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Re: Jobseekers Directives JSD

Post by Admin on Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:47 pm

thankyou hh ive also just found the same info

https://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forums/viewthread/8421/

We’ve requested they revisit their decision to ban him

but what does he do in the meantime? The only thing I can think of is that we request he is allowed to sign on by post.

ive also added it to the jobseker help section on the forums

http://respectfulbenefits.forumotion.com/t961-banned-from-jcp-office#3470


Last edited by Admin on Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Jobseekers Directives JSD

Post by helping_hand on Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:56 pm

I suggest anyone in a similar position to see advice from CAB or a welfare rights agency.

DWP's behaviour can become perverse in these situations from my experience.  Mad
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Re: Jobseekers Directives JSD

Post by Caker on Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:50 pm

It might be worth submitting a subject access request in regard to any incident report generated in regard to any alleged/fabricated incident.
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Re: Jobseekers Directives JSD

Post by Absolut on Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:56 pm

Caker wrote:It might be worth submitting a subject access request in regard to any incident report generated in regard to any alleged/fabricated incident.

Yes, it looks like they are aiming to justify the ban based on a UCB incident. Suspect
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Re: Jobseekers Directives JSD

Post by Caker on Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:59 pm

They must go on a special course for fabricating incidents in order to justify outcomes
pirat
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Re: Jobseekers Directives JSD

Post by helping_hand on Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:48 pm

I would suggest the outcome depends on what you wish to achieve?

1. Is the aim to win the argument, or

2. To reach a resolution that is more favourable on your terms?
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Re: Jobseekers Directives JSD

Post by Rowratty on Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:15 pm

I thank you all for your replies.

JCP are out of control, a law unto themselves.

@Admin
There is no signature on the letter...no name whatsoever.

@helping_hand
I'm not looking to win an argument or reach a resolution that is more favourable on my terms,
There are guidelines in place for a reason...JCP seem to make up the rules whenever they see fit.
No alternative arrangements have been made...I have no idea what I'm supposed to do on Thursday, my next WSR.

@Caker
A SAR request will take too long.

I make one complaint and I'm now a danger to all JCP staff...Power mad lunatics!

"Claimants must be the given the opportunity to respond to a
banning letter if they believe the decision is unfair and this will be referred to in the banning
letter, which will provide the contact details of TSol.
TSol will forward requests for clarification, review or complaints to an agreed team for
formal consideration. In most cases it will be appropriate for TSoL to clear the response."

What's TSol?

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Re: Jobseekers Directives JSD

Post by Admin on Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:59 pm

a sar request will prove more info so its best to request for that info at same time via a different email

its used as proof against your proof if it gets to an appeal situation

you should get another letter to advice you but some people havent got a letter at all

hh is correct you have to decide the best outcome that your looking for an mp or any other system out there cab or otherwise will ask you the same what outcome are you looking for

we understand your mad as hell and fuming at same time but try to step back and look at the bigger picture your evidence against theirs even better if you have the sar request info that will prove that jcp are lieing against your recorded evidence

tsol

The Treasury Solicitor's Department (TSol) was already providing a shared ... DCLG, and employment and litigation lawyers from DWP and DH.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/231930/response/590493/attach/3/FOI%20HR%20Response.pdf

read paragraph 3 and 4

If the ban is without foundation, and there has been no incidents of
'unacceptable behavior' by the banned claimant, then there can be no risk to the DWP employees and the public, and therefore a ban in such a case is punitive, unlawful and discriminatory. It is a form of bullying.

extra info dwp procedure to ban a claimant

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/226523/response/559635/attach/5/Annex%202.pdf
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Re: Jobseekers Directives JSD

Post by helping_hand on Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:29 am

DWP has breached its own policy:

Examples of behaviour which may result in a ban are:
 Incidents of a violent nature, including actual physical assault;
 Deliberate damage to property;
 Threats of assault; and
 Harassment i.e. two or more associated incidents which cause alarm or
distress

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/226523/response/559635/attach/5/Annex%202.pdf

The manager claimed harassment in your case. There has only been one incident.

Are there any signs in your Jobcentre regarding the use of mobiles?
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Re: Jobseekers Directives JSD

Post by Caker on Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:20 am

Also, for clarity, it would be good to articulate what 'harassment' was being alleged by the manager. Is it just that s/he suspected recording?

A SAR would reveal what has been said by any witness (whether that is factual or otherwise).
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Re: Jobseekers Directives JSD

Post by Absolut on Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:42 am

I agree with Caker. It is not a waste of time to submit a SAR asap. If you only ask for LMS notes and/or any submitted UCB incident reports you should get it back within a couple of days.

UCB policy documents can be found here:
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/unacceptable_customer_behaviour_2#incoming-828363
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Re: Jobseekers Directives JSD

Post by Rowratty on Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:49 am

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/424353/response/1026854/attach/html/2/UCB%20Guidance.pdf.html

See 23-28 in the above.
It says any incident. the link HH provides is out of date.
I've put a SAR together for all LMS and all documents that relate to UCB

I refused to show my phone and during the interview my phone 'beeped', manager shouts "Harassment" and now I'm banned for twelve months. No other UCB warnings whatsoever.

TSol no longer exists all legal stuff is dealt with by https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/government-legal-department
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Re: Jobseekers Directives JSD

Post by helping_hand on Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:10 am

Telling someone you are recording them without prior consent could be viewed as harassment.
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Re: Jobseekers Directives JSD

Post by Rowratty on Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:29 am

@HH

That's quite true, but I didn't tell the manager that I was recording the interview, see:  Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:45 pm above.
My phone 'beeped' and the manager assumed that I was recording, there is no evidence to prove I was recording. The interview was in a private room, no witnesses.
The banning letter says "You continue to record interviews without prior permission" but that's not true. Other than my phone 'beeping' there is no evidence that I was recording the interview, a 'beep' from a phone does not in anyway provide proof of recording...
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Re: Jobseekers Directives JSD

Post by Admin on Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:40 pm

there is no evidence other than a beep from somewhere could be a phone could have been a beep from a pager on a person

that fact its been accused as harassment is out of context

ive done the recordings but i also informed jcp that i was doing

https://skwawkbox.org/2013/09/05/referred-to-a-psychologist-for-wanting-to-record-jobcentre-interviews/

now back to what was being said best off is get all the evidence from jcp using a sar request this gives more light on their claims against you

by now your own complaint should have started the ball rolling

? have you received another letter as of yet
? also id like you to type out or upload if you can a redacted copy of your letter you received

this informs us better what they have accused you of doing

The banning letter says "You continue to record interviews without prior permission" but that's not true. Other than my phone 'beeping' there is no evidence that I was recording the interview, a 'beep' from a phone does not in anyway provide proof of recording...

is there any more info other than that
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Re: Jobseekers Directives JSD

Post by helping_hand on Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:47 pm

You informed the manager you were recording and hence the interview was terminated hastily.

The person on the other side of the glass wears no identification lanyard and tells me that they are the JCP manager, I’ve never seen this person before in my life.
I make a note of the name given, “Why are you writing down my name?”

I’m recording the conversation covertly.

I’m then given my usual declaration to sign, which I do.

http://respectfulbenefits.forumotion.com/t890-jobseekers-directives-jsd#3435
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Re: Jobseekers Directives JSD

Post by Admin on Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:55 pm

i believe this reference as there thoughts

I’m recording the conversation covertly.

to the jcp manager they was only taking notes on the notepad or paper which you can do

I’ve never seen this person before in my life.
I make a note of the name given, “Why are you writing down my name?”

so the claimant hasnt quoted they was recording the interview with the manager only taking down notes
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Re: Jobseekers Directives JSD

Post by Caker on Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:35 pm

Rowratty wrote:@HH

That's quite true, but I didn't tell the manager that I was recording the interview, see:  Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:45 pm above.
My phone 'beeped' and the manager assumed that I was recording, there is no evidence to prove I was recording. The interview was in a private room, no witnesses.
The banning letter says "You continue to record interviews without prior permission" but that's not true. Other than my phone 'beeping' there is no evidence that I was recording the interview, a 'beep' from a phone does not in anyway provide proof of recording...

This is quite true; the 'beep' could have been a text message coming in, or a previous alarm set. There is nothing to even suggest that your device was in recording mode. On that basis, it appears that the JC worker made an assumption that you were recording, based on no evidence whatsoever. You have been penalised based upon zero evidence of any offence. affraid
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Re: Jobseekers Directives JSD

Post by Caker on Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:43 pm

Admin wrote:i believe this reference as there thoughts

I’m recording the conversation covertly.

to the jcp manager they was only taking notes on the notepad or paper which you can do

I’ve never seen this person before in my life.
I make a note of the name given, “Why are you writing down my name?”

so the claimant hasnt quoted they was recording the interview with the manager only taking down notes



So the person said s/he is the JC manager but it cannot be known if this is true or not Suspect

Why would someone who is doing their job correctly, in line with procedures, be alarmed if a claimant made a note of his/her name? Surely, nothing to hide, nothing to fear Suspect
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Re: Jobseekers Directives JSD

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