Friend want to avoid Jobcentre course with a JSA28

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Re: Friend want to avoid Jobcentre course with a JSA28

Post by Caker on Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:42 pm

I am not 100% on this but I think the WC is telling porkies pig

Jara wrote:Some of the stuff the work coach said:

•Because my friend recently (like me) completed the Work Programme she is on a stricter regime now.

•Everything she is being sent is mandatory, even SBWA.

•SBWA means a guarenteed interview, so my friend turned down a job.

•At the start of next week her good reason will be sent to a decision maker.


My friend is i tears right now.. and I feel very guilty for advicing her on turning down the SBWA-placement


* The regime for WP leavers is the Mandatory Intervention Regime 'MIR'.

* As far as I know, MIR had 2 elements (someone will correct me if there were more and I missed one out) that the WC could choose. Daily signing was one of them and community work programme (workfare) was the other. CWP ended March 2016 as I remember, so this is no longer an option for the WC to refer people to. Referrals have stopped.

* As far as I know, SBWA has not changed and it remains voluntary as it was before. The rules are NOT different for WP completers as far as I am aware.

* Even if SBWA includes a guaranteed interview this is not a guaranteed job. I understand a lot of SBWA completers are interviewed even when there is no vacancy and no possibility of any job. Your friend has not turned down any job as she has not been offered any job.

* It does sound like the 'good reason' has been entirely trumped up by the WC. People can refuse the SBWA and this is not grounds for a doubt being raised. The WC seems to be raising a false doubt. Any decision maker should throw this out.


I hope someone with better knowledge comes along and helps further. In the meantime, what you have told us, looks a lot like malfeasance to me (WC telling lies/making threats/acting unlawfully). I hope your friend feels better soon.
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Re: Friend want to avoid Jobcentre course with a JSA28

Post by Admin on Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:45 pm

http://www.boycottworkfare.org/avoid-forced-unpaid-work-know-your-rights/

Sector-based Work Academies

These are 6 weeks long and involve both “pre-employment training” and a work experience placement. You don’t have to take part in them, but if you start and then drop out you could be sanctioned.

“Claimants’ decision to take part is voluntary, but attendance becomes mandatory once a claimant has accepted a place” Source: Commons Library Research Briefing, June 2015

http://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/SN06249
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Re: Friend want to avoid Jobcentre course with a JSA28

Post by helping_hand on Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:46 pm

Jara wrote:I went with my friend to her jobcentre appointment recently and it did not go well.

Some background:

  • My friend went to her SBWA open day earlier this week, she listened for a while and when offered the oppertunity to leave she left.
  • Both the course-person and a JCP staff member told them nothing of this was mandatory. My friend recorded this with her phone.
  • The only paper she was given before the open day was an invitation to the open day. There was nothing saying it was mandatory.
  • She have a recording of the appointment she was given this SBWA-invitation.

Now this is what happened very recencly. I was with her and all of this have been recorded using my phone. Her Work coach asked her why she turned the SBWA-thing. She told her work coach the SBWA wasn't for her, but she insisted on not giving any more reasons. Instead she been offered to come in next week to have her good reason scanned in as she wanted it to be written.

Some of the stuff the work coach said:

  • Because my friend recently (like me) completed the Work Programme she is on a stricter regime now.
  • Everything she is being sent is mandatory, even SBWA.
  • SBWA means a guarenteed interview, so my friend turned down a job.
  • At the start of next week her good reason will be sent to a decision maker.

My friend is i tears right now.. and I feel very guilty for advicing her on turning down the SBWA-placement.

Hi Jara

Good reason does not apply as your friend has not be mandated to attend a voluntary scheme!

Let me know if you need further assistance with a complaint.

Relevant information:

Requirement to notify
34869 The requirement to notify1 is usually met by
1. the issue of a letter to the claimant by the JCP advisor at the point of referral to the relevant scheme and
2. a notification from JCP or the provider to tell the claimant what specific activity they are actually being mandated to do.
Note 1: As long as all the requirements at DMG 34867 are fulfilled, even if it is by a combination of 1. and
2., this will meet the legal requirement for notification and a sanction may be considered if the claimant fails to participate without good reason (see guidance on evidence of notification at DMG 34872).
Note 2: See guidance at DMG 34853 with regard to the Sc scheme. 1 JSA (SAPOE) Regs, reg 5
Failure to participate in the prescribed scheme

Evidence of notification
34872 In addition to the notifications outlined at DMG 34869 1. and 2. the JCP advisor will have discussed or advised the claimant
1. the benefits of participation in a relevant scheme and
2. what is expected of them whilst participating and
3. the consequences of failing to participate before they are mandated to take part. For example: when a claimant is selected to participate in the WP they are issued with an information leaflet which outlines the responsibilities of the claimant whilst participating in the WP to include attending meetings and taking phone calls as arranged and completing activities the provider tells the claimant to do. The issue of all correspondence should be recorded for evidentiary purposes but the DM does not have to see evidence of all the notifications in order to impose a sanction. As long as the Secretary of State can show the notifications were sent, then the DM can go on to consider the reasons for the non-compliance, unless the claimant raises the issue of notification in their reasons for failing to comply (also see DMG 34772).

Note: The issue of all notifications should be recorded in departmental records for evidentiary reasons in the event of a reconsideration and/or appeal.

34870 A claimant is regarded as failing to participate in a prescribed scheme where they fail without good reason to comply with any of the requirements notified to them1 . Note: A sanction for a failure to participate can only be imposed where the Secretary of State complies with the notification requirements. If the notice does not meet the requirements the claimant cannot be sanctioned.
See DMG 34872 for guidance on evidence of notification. 1 JS Act 95, s 19A(2)(b)

Requirement to participate and notification
34867 Claimants who are selected to participate in a relevant scheme have to be notified of this in a written notice1 which specifies 1. that the claimant is required to participate in the scheme2
2. the day on which the claimant’s participation will start3
3. the details of what the claimant is required to do by way of participation4 4. that the claimant is required to participate until
4.1 notice is given by the Secretary of State that participation is no longer required or
4.2 the award of JSA ends whichever is earlier5
5. information about the consequences of failing to participate in the relevant scheme6 .

Note 1: Any changes to the details at 3. (ie: details of what the claimant is required to do by way of participation) after the date the claimant starts participating in a relevant scheme must be notified to the claimant in writing7 . Note 2: Where the written notice is given by post it is taken to have been received on the second working day after posting8 . 1 JSA (SAPOE) Regs, reg 5(1); 2 reg 5(2)(a); 3 reg 5(2)(b); 4 reg 5(2)(c); 5 reg 5(2)(d); 6 reg 5(2)(e); 7 reg 5(3); 8 reg 2(2)

The sector-based work academy 34852 The sbwa is a scheme which provides for
1. a period of up to 6 weeks training to enable a claimant to gain the skills needed in the work place and
2. a work experience placement for a period to be agreed with the claimant and
3. either a job interview with an employer or support to help participants through an employer’s application process1 .

Note 1: The academies are designed to support JSA claimants aged 18 years or over who are relatively job ready. The training and work experience is tailored to employers’ needs to help fill vacancies more efficiently whilst supporting participants into sustained employment.

Note 2: Participation in the sbwa is voluntary, but once a claimant has agreed to participate in the scheme, they are then mandated to attend the training element and guaranteed job interview (also see Note 3).

The work experience element of sbwa is not mandatory. The only reason a claimant could be sanctioned for a failure to take part in the work experience element of the scheme is if the claimant lost the place due to gross misconduct (see further guidance at DMG 34921).

Note 3: As the guaranteed job interview forms part of what is required by way of participation in the swba employment programme, failure to comply with the requirement to attend that interview without good reason is a failure to participate in the sbwa scheme2 and not a refusal or failure to take part in a job interview and as such a low-level sanction would apply. If the sbwa provider offers employment following the guaranteed job interview but the claimant refuses, the DM should consider whether the claimant was correctly notified of the vacancy by an Emp O and consider a higher-level sanction3 (see DMG 34723).

Note 4: If a claimant fails or refuses to take an apprenticeship which was offered to them at the end of the sbwa scheme.
DMs should check whether the apprenticeship vacancy falls into the criteria at DMG 34708 and apply the relevant guidance 1 JSA (SAPOE) Regs, reg 3(6); 2 JS Act 95 s 19A (2)(b); 3 s 19(2)(c )

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/626756/dmgch34.pdf
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Re: Friend want to avoid Jobcentre course with a JSA28

Post by Jara on Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:56 pm

Sounds good and confirms what I told the work coach during my friend's appointment.

@helping_hand
Thank you for the information. The right course of action is now for her to attend her new appointment next week and tell her coach that a reason is not necessary?

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Re: Friend want to avoid Jobcentre course with a JSA28

Post by helping_hand on Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:24 pm

@Jara

No reason is necessary, because no mandate has been issued (agreed to).
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Re: Friend want to avoid Jobcentre course with a JSA28

Post by Absolut on Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:55 am

Caker wrote:* The regime for WP leavers is the Mandatory Intervention Regime 'MIR'.

If you have a part time job or you have some voluntary work it is "recommended" that they place the WP leaver in the Jobcentre Plus Offer category and not the MIR Wink.
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Re: Friend want to avoid Jobcentre course with a JSA28

Post by Jara on Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:25 pm

Thank you guys Smile You are really helpful!

My friend have asked me what is going to happen next. Is she going to hear about it when a DM throws this out of the window? How long does it take these days for a DM to reach a decision?

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Re: Friend want to avoid Jobcentre course with a JSA28

Post by helping_hand on Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:25 pm

Jara wrote:Thank you guys Smile You are really helpful!

My friend have asked me what is going to happen next. Is she going to hear about it when a DM throws this out of the window? How long does it take these days for a DM to reach a decision?

Advise your friend to take the information I have posted above into the Jobcentre to ensure no submission is made to the DM. Ask her to speak with the officer in charge if the internal guidance is ignored.
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Re: Friend want to avoid Jobcentre course with a JSA28

Post by Jara on Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:40 pm

helping_hand wrote:
Jara wrote:Thank you guys Smile You are really helpful!

My friend have asked me what is going to happen next. Is she going to hear about it when a DM throws this out of the window? How long does it take these days for a DM to reach a decision?

Advise your friend to take the information I have posted above into the Jobcentre to ensure no submission is made to the DM. Ask her to speak with the officer in charge if the internal guidance is ignored.

Will do Smile Although I am not hopeful her work coach will listen or even let my friend speak with the officer in charge. Will write an update after the appointment!

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Re: Friend want to avoid Jobcentre course with a JSA28

Post by Caker on Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:11 am

The officer in charge is most likely to be the JC manager. The WC has no right to refuse for a claimant to speak with the manager IMHO.
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Re: Friend want to avoid Jobcentre course with a JSA28

Post by Jara on Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:23 pm

I went with my friend to her appointment. To our surprise we got another work coach. Apparently their computer system were down (or very slow) so the work coach could not get any details. The work coach took the papers that I printed for my friend with information provided by helping_hand (thank you!!). No usernames or URLs were given to protect everyone here though.

So the work coach will look at the papers and then decide what to do. My friend should get a call in the next few days.

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Re: Friend want to avoid Jobcentre course with a JSA28

Post by Caker on Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:28 pm

.....the suspense......
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Re: Friend want to avoid Jobcentre course with a JSA28

Post by Admin on Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:25 am

Jara wrote:I went with my friend to her appointment. To our surprise we got another work coach. Apparently their computer system were down (or very slow) so the work coach could not get any details. The work coach took the papers that I printed for my friend with information provided by helping_hand (thank you!!). No usernames or URLs were given to protect everyone here though.

So the work coach will look at the papers and then decide what to do. My friend should get a call in the next few days.

id have kept them for the next appointment as long as the subject hadnt been brought up at the jcp office slow computers or failed system you cannot be subjected to informed consent by not giving correct details
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Re: Friend want to avoid Jobcentre course with a JSA28

Post by Jara on Thu Aug 24, 2017 5:13 pm

I don't really like that the only way to provide "good reason" is by telling the reason to a work coach. When my WPP tried to sanction me some time ago I could send in my "good reason" as a letter. I much prefer that way than their new online system way of doing it now.

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Re: Friend want to avoid Jobcentre course with a JSA28

Post by Jara on Thu Aug 24, 2017 6:31 pm

My friend got a text from DWP earlier saying they are reviewing my friends labour market sanction case. I guess she did a mistake trusting the work coach.

I don't see why a decision maker will decide anything else than a sanction for her.. the system is corrupt and nobody at the Jobcentre seem to care about their own policies or the law.

The message said my friend will have a decision in a couple of weeks so it looks like she will get at least one more full JSA payment, gives her some time to get some stuff sorted before a sanction.

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Re: Friend want to avoid Jobcentre course with a JSA28

Post by Caker on Thu Aug 24, 2017 6:56 pm

....sorry to hear this and I hope she will challenge any sanction which is applied. We can help.
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Re: Friend want to avoid Jobcentre course with a JSA28

Post by ABC on Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:14 pm

I'm basically repeating what others have said here Jara but your friend has nothing to worry about (in the long run) because, as you've outlined, your friend was never mandated to this course, not least of all because it's a voluntary course. You may have to go for a mandatory review, though I doubt it if the DM is has any moral backbone, but hey ho that's the way it is!

What I would have done is once you had helping hands information I would have immediately phoned for a one to one interview with the Jobcentre manager and cut the piss-ant work coach out of the loop. Hopefully there won't be a next time but if there is don't mess around get a complaint in at the earliest opportunity. And of course put a written complaint in now to the Jobcentre manager about the maladministration of this work coach and the intense suffering your friend has had as a consequence.
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Re: Friend want to avoid Jobcentre course with a JSA28

Post by Jara on Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:34 pm

Thank you ABC, but neither me and my friend are very good at writing complaints Smile I'll see what I can write though

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Re: Friend want to avoid Jobcentre course with a JSA28

Post by Admin on Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:35 pm

if your stuck always ask on here jara

we do try to help people out as best as we can do
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Re: Friend want to avoid Jobcentre course with a JSA28

Post by helping_hand on Fri Aug 25, 2017 7:58 am



Last edited by helping_hand on Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Friend want to avoid Jobcentre course with a JSA28

Post by Jara on Fri Aug 25, 2017 10:26 am

helping_hand wrote:A SWBA complaint template has been added to the 'Jobseeker help letters'.

Very good work, thank you very much!

I have found an email to the district manager in another post (thank you Caker!). Would it work sending it there by email or do you recommend sending it by post to the Jobcentre?

Edit: I also found this website https://makeacomplaint.dwp.gov.uk/, does anyone have any experience using that service to make a complaint?

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Re: Friend want to avoid Jobcentre course with a JSA28

Post by Jara on Fri Aug 25, 2017 12:19 pm

My friend got a letter today which she sent me a photo of just now.

About (my friends name)
This is because we recently told you that a decision would be made about a doubt:
  • on wheter you failed to comply with the requirements of the scheme to which you have been referred. We have now decided you did not comply with the requirements of the scheme to which you have been referred, and that you did not have sufficiently good reason for doing so. This decision applies from -some dates which is about four weeks-.
The complaint letter provided by helping_hand seems like a good letter (maybe with some adjustments) to send for a "Mandatory Reconsideration".

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Re: Friend want to avoid Jobcentre course with a JSA28

Post by Caker on Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:33 pm

.....yes, I think it is a good idea to adapt the letter to a mandatory Reconsideration and complaint combined.

Give us a shout if you need any help with that.
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Re: Friend want to avoid Jobcentre course with a JSA28

Post by Jara on Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:10 pm

Some help would be good. My friend also received a phone call. Apparently they wanted to start the "Mandatory Reconsideration" straight away over the phone which my friend did not want. Now she have one week to send in a letter. Also she were told she apparently accepted the SBWA by agreeing to attend the open day, and that's when it became mandatory. So at least she got some more information that might be useful.

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Re: Friend want to avoid Jobcentre course with a JSA28

Post by helping_hand on Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:18 pm

Jara wrote:Some help would be good. My friend also received a phone call. Apparently they wanted to start the "Mandatory Reconsideration" straight away over the phone which my friend did not want. Now she have one week to send in a letter. Also she were told she apparently accepted the SBWA by agreeing to attend the open day, and that's when it became mandatory. So at least she got some more information that might be useful.

Hi Jara

Can you provide details of the notice issued to attend the info session, so that we have all the facts please?

Ref: the Cait Reilly case:

21. From 31 October 2011, Miss Reilly participated, albeit unwillingly, in the
sbwa scheme. This involved a week’s training, a two-week unpaid work placement
at a Poundland store, and a further week’s training. She participated in the scheme
because her Jobcentre adviser informed her that her participation in the scheme
was mandatory. That was wrong: it is not mandatory to take part in the sbwa
scheme, although once a claimant accepts a place, she must complete the scheme
.
She asserts that had she been correctly informed about the scheme, she would have
exercised her right not to participate in it. Contrary to regulation 4 of the 2011
Regulations (“regulation 4”), Miss Reilly did not receive any written notice
concerning her participation in the sbwa scheme.


https://www.supremecourt.uk/cases/docs/uksc-2013-0064-judgment.pdf


Last edited by helping_hand on Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Friend want to avoid Jobcentre course with a JSA28

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