Friend want to avoid Jobcentre course with a JSA28

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Friend want to avoid Jobcentre course with a JSA28

Post by Jara on Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:58 am

I have a bit of an odd question. It's not for me but for my friend. A woman I met while I was doing the Work Programme. We both helped each other during our time there. She is one of the very few good things that came out of the WP for me.

She is still on JSA and next week her work coach want to refer her to one of their useless courses. Both me and her have plans on spending two or three days the week after next week for some fun in another city. So it's very likely this course will put an end to our plans, unless she uses a JSA28! She got her referral appointment on Thursday next week and is likely to start her course on 14/08.

My question is, should she use a JSA28 to skip her referral appointment or is it better to have her JSA28 start on the first day of the course?

I am sorry about my question being a bit unethical or immoral.

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Re: Friend want to avoid Jobcentre course with a JSA28

Post by helping_hand on Sun Aug 06, 2017 11:28 am

Let us know about the course and how your friend is being referred/mandated.

A JSA28 may not be necessary!  Very Happy

Technically you are meant to tell DWP you are going away from home!
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Re: Friend want to avoid Jobcentre course with a JSA28

Post by Jara on Sun Aug 06, 2017 11:55 am

Her work coach told her some weeks ago she was going to be referred to a course. Last week she got a text from her work coach telling her about an appointment for next week and that is going to be her referral appointment for this course. There is no other letters or anything else telling her about this new appointment. She have every other appointments and sign on recorded on her phone.

She doesn't know anything about this course other than it's a employability-course.

It was my first suggestion to her that she just skips her appointment next week but she wasn't very keen on having to deal with a sanction doubt.

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Re: Friend want to avoid Jobcentre course with a JSA28

Post by Caker on Sun Aug 06, 2017 4:17 pm

I am not sure, but I believe all courses need to be notified in writing with the location and dates (each day) of the course. I believe the course must also meet some specific identified need.

If there is no paperwork then I really don't think your friend has been correctly notified.
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Re: Friend want to avoid Jobcentre course with a JSA28

Post by Jara on Sun Aug 06, 2017 4:22 pm

Caker wrote:If there is no paperwork then I really don't think your friend has been correctly notified.

How would she go on and prove there's not been any paperwork?

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Re: Friend want to avoid Jobcentre course with a JSA28

Post by Caker on Sun Aug 06, 2017 4:43 pm

That is tricky as a negative cannot be proven (scientifically).

In her position I would submit a subject access request asking for copies of all clerical and electronic documents/communication in her name from date, a couple of weeks before she received the text, up to the date of processing the request.

Any letter that has been produced (whether sent/ recieved or not) should be in the bundle of information she receives. I would err on the side of caution by asking for all documents rather than saying that she is specifically looking for a particular letter. She does not want to alert the DWP to what evidence she is looking for if in so doing she gives them the opportunity to falsify some letter that was never sent.
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Re: Friend want to avoid Jobcentre course with a JSA28

Post by Jara on Sun Aug 06, 2017 5:48 pm

Caker wrote:She does not want to alert the DWP to what evidence she is looking for if in so doing she gives them the opportunity to falsify some letter that was never sent.

I am worried that might already been done, or that the letter was sent out but lost somewhere. This does seem a bit risky and probably not worth it. I am still thinking using a JSA28 is a lot safer for her.

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Re: Friend want to avoid Jobcentre course with a JSA28

Post by helping_hand on Sun Aug 06, 2017 6:18 pm

A notice to attend the Jobcentre does not have to be given in writing:

Attendance
23. 1
A claimant shall 2
participate in an interview in such manner, time and place
as an employment officer may specify by a notification which is given or sent to the
claimant and which may be in writing, by telephone or by electronic means.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1996/207/pdfs/uksi_19960207_300617_en.pdf

A notice to attend a course must be given in writing (Jobseeker's Direction).

Ref: http://respectfulbenefits.forumotion.com/t337-legal-use-of-a-jobseeker-s-direction

Use a JSA28 if absolutely necessary.  However, a referral to the course will be made at a future date.
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Re: Friend want to avoid Jobcentre course with a JSA28

Post by Jara on Sun Aug 06, 2017 6:31 pm

helping_hand wrote:However, a referral to the course will be made at a future date.

Would this still be true if my friend let herself be referred, but then used a JSA28 to skip the course?

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Re: Friend want to avoid Jobcentre course with a JSA28

Post by Caker on Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:05 pm

For future reference I suggest she might withdraw her telephone number in order to not get communication via text.
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Re: Friend want to avoid Jobcentre course with a JSA28

Post by helping_hand on Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:28 pm

Jara wrote:
helping_hand wrote:However, a referral to the course will be made at a future date.

Would this still be true if my friend let herself be referred, but then used a JSA28 to skip the course?

Yes, it is highly likely.

Once we know more about the course we can advise further.
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Re: Friend want to avoid Jobcentre course with a JSA28

Post by Admin on Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:47 pm

there is a way out by using a job interview on that date

but you must use something that they can remember

dosnt have to be local either if the job interview is in another area for the job within your area

however it means you cannot get back for a meeting
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Re: Friend want to avoid Jobcentre course with a JSA28

Post by helping_hand on Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:06 am

Failure to attend a Jobcentre interview interview will result in a sanction without good cause/good reason.

DWP requires corroboration for almost every good cause/reason, so take care!


Last edited by helping_hand on Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Friend want to avoid Jobcentre course with a JSA28

Post by Caker on Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:07 am

I suspect that anyone saying they have a job interview to avoid a DWP activity will almost certainly be asked to provide a letter/email about the job interview. If the person says the interview was arranged by the employer via phone then I suspect the DWP worker would ask for the name of the business.
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Re: Friend want to avoid Jobcentre course with a JSA28

Post by Caker on Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:14 am

I think we definitely need to know more about what the course is.

I would be inclined to attend the referral appointment and then use the JSA28 for the course if I was going to use it at all. That way, the referral will be completely wasted pirat as they will not have time to mandate someone else to it on the day it starts. That will be disruptive to the course provider as they will be unlikely to be paid for that place as no one is in it.

Your friend is likely to be referred again but that is another bridge to cross.
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Re: Friend want to avoid Jobcentre course with a JSA28

Post by ABC on Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:26 am

Caker wrote:I would be inclined to attend the referral appointment and then use the JSA28 for the course if I was going to use it at all.

That's the way I'd do it as well. But your friend needs to be aware that if she's seen out and about while on a JSA28 sickness she'll be in all sorts of trouble at the Jobcentre for fraudulently using a JSA28 and for not informing the jobcentre that she's going to be in another town. The other alternative is to use a week of her annual holiday entitlement, although I'm not sure if you get that if you're on UC. If she can use it get it booked with the jobcentre asap and don't let on that you're due a course at the provider.

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Re: Friend want to avoid Jobcentre course with a JSA28

Post by helping_hand on Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:54 pm

ABC wrote:
Caker wrote:I would be inclined to attend the referral appointment and then use the JSA28 for the course if I was going to use it at all.

That's the way I'd do it as well. But your friend needs to be aware that if she's seen out and about while on a JSA28 sickness she'll be in all sorts of trouble at the Jobcentre for fraudulently using a JSA28 and for not informing the jobcentre that she's going to be in another town. The other alternative is to use a week of her annual holiday entitlement, although I'm not sure if you get that if you're on UC. If she can use it get it booked with the jobcentre asap and don't let on that you're due a course at the provider.

A fraudulent JSA28 is not going to occur in this case, nor is 'out of area' fraud.

A period of of 'going away from home' will be considered suspicious when informed of an imminent course.  

The best solution is for your friend to attend the interview and for you to provide us with the course details so we can advise further.  We can then suggest a JSA28 or an alternative solution.

I suspect any direction/mandate might be unlawful and easily challenged without risk of a sanction.

At the end of the day, it is up to your friend to decide what is best way forward for her!

Edit:
balaclava, a big hat/scarf and/or dark glasses can come in handy if you wish to avoid being recognised by a DWP official! Very Happy






Last edited by helping_hand on Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:40 pm; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : add info.)
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Re: Friend want to avoid Jobcentre course with a JSA28

Post by Caker on Mon Aug 07, 2017 3:39 pm

......back in the day, a friend of a friend was going on holiday (for a week) between fortnightly signing appointments. He was standing at the train station with his back-pack when a member of staff, from the JC, turned up Embarassed .This person was one of the more ferocious roaches. They just looked at each other. Nothing was ever said.  silent They were not getting on the same train .

I suspect that these days he would have come home from the holiday to find a brown envelope on the doormat pale
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Re: Friend want to avoid Jobcentre course with a JSA28

Post by Tarquin Flotsam on Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:28 pm

If it's a course she feels she can't avoid, and gets the dreaded mandatory letter with it (though, as helping_hand has pointed out, the JSD/mandatory letter could be unlawful), then most probably she'd be better off using the JSA28 form, starting the sickness date from the 1st day of the course. Always good to remember to take full amount of days when using the JSA28, not just a few days.

Also, invite your friend to join this site!
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Re: Friend want to avoid Jobcentre course with a JSA28

Post by Jara on Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:19 pm

She just called me and told me she managed to get on a SBWA-thing instead of this employability-course! As far as I understood things from reading topics here this scheme is not mandatory as long as you don't accept a place on the course. She got an information session (or open day) at the start of next week and then a follow up appointment with her work-coach. That leaves a couple of free days for us!

My friend doesn't want the SBWA-course either. It's not the right kind of job for her (low paid unskilled work with very long hours). I will try to convince her it's safe to say no to the work coach at the follow up appointment!

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Re: Friend want to avoid Jobcentre course with a JSA28

Post by Caker on Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:26 pm

Thanks for the update Jara.
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Re: Friend want to avoid Jobcentre course with a JSA28

Post by Absolut on Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:09 am

ABC wrote:But your friend needs to be aware that if she's seen out and about while on a JSA28 sickness she'll be in all sorts of trouble at the Jobcentre for fraudulently using a JSA28 and for not informing the jobcentre that she's going to be in another town.

Being seen out and about on a day trip where the cliamant is obviously not sick will indeed be fraud, but under a JSA28 the claimant is not prohibited from being "in another town". I went to another town in order to have an operation on my foot and I returned to that other town in order to have a medical checkup later on (still under a JSA28). I didn't inform the jobcentre about that second trip, nor do I routinely inform the DWP of any medical appointments I have in a different town to the one I live in every time I have to go. If I'm seen "out and about" going to and from that medical appointment in another town the DWP's accusation of fraud would be null and void. It all depends on what you are going to be doing in "another town" Very Happy
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Re: Friend want to avoid Jobcentre course with a JSA28

Post by Jara on Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:46 pm

We are not too worried about being seen next week but we will be careful.

My friend is going to say no to this SBWA as it's not a mandatory scheme, but she have some concerns about saying no to it. In the past she have applied for similar jobs to the SBWA-job, so saying no to it might raise suspicion.

If her work coach asks why she didn't want the SBWA, is saying "private reasons" sufficient enough?

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Re: Friend want to avoid Jobcentre course with a JSA28

Post by Caker on Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:18 pm

AFAIK, she does not have to give the WC any reason whatsoever. If asked why she refused she certainly could say 'private reasons', or any variation e.g. personal reasons. That shuts the conversation down as the WC cannot then explore the reasons and construct counter arguments. Smile
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Re: Friend want to avoid Jobcentre course with a JSA28

Post by Jara on Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:07 pm

I went with my friend to her jobcentre appointment recently and it did not go well.

Some background:

  • My friend went to her SBWA open day earlier this week, she listened for a while and when offered the oppertunity to leave she left.
  • Both the course-person and a JCP staff member told them nothing of this was mandatory. My friend recorded this with her phone.
  • The only paper she was given before the open day was an invitation to the open day. There was nothing saying it was mandatory.
  • She have a recording of the appointment she was given this SBWA-invitation.

Now this is what happened very recencly. I was with her and all of this have been recorded using my phone. Her Work coach asked her why she turned the SBWA-thing. She told her work coach the SBWA wasn't for her, but she insisted on not giving any more reasons. Instead she been offered to come in next week to have her good reason scanned in as she wanted it to be written.

Some of the stuff the work coach said:

  • Because my friend recently (like me) completed the Work Programme she is on a stricter regime now.
  • Everything she is being sent is mandatory, even SBWA.
  • SBWA means a guarenteed interview, so my friend turned down a job.
  • At the start of next week her good reason will be sent to a decision maker.

My friend is i tears right now.. and I feel very guilty for advicing her on turning down the SBWA-placement.

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