CREATING A JSAG CC

View previous topic View next topic Go down

CREATING A JSAG CC

Post by Admin on Sun Apr 16, 2017 1:32 pm

theres a few things involved with creating a jsag cc the first is having knowledge of what your really signing and what your bound with

with all this been involved best way is to prepare for the event of a jsag cc

first off knowledge

up to date cc format

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/claimant_commitment_format_for_j

and another to review upon

JSAg CC ASE Avail.pdf
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/221703/response/545491/attach/5/02%20Topic%2002%20JSAg%20CC%20ASE%20Avail.pdf

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?431218-Claimant-Commitment

As you all so rightly say we need to be aware of and ready to argue and negotiate the points that you all warn us of.

So far I have not got past the very first step. More accurately, they have not got past the first step with me.

That first step is the one I mentioned in a previous post:

16. At the Initial Work Search Interview, the Work Coach must have an in depth conversation with a claimant to build an understanding of their capability and circumstances relating to work. Information gathered in this interview must be used to complete the Claimant Commitment.
17. It is important that the Claimant Commitment is completed at the end of the discussion and not during the discussion itself. In this way, it demonstrates to the claimant that:

   the coach has actively listened to the claimant;
   the coach has given the claimant full attention;
   all the claimant’s circumstances have been taken into account when developing the Claimant Commitment, so it is personal to them; and
   the Claimant Commitment is reasonable and achievable.

This clearly states that a discussion, ‘an in-depth conversation’, has to take place as a first step. The CC form must be a blank sheet at the commencement of this stage and only after the conversation has taken place can the adviser begin to fill in the blanks, based on their understanding of the claimant’s capability and circumstances, and then only by agreement.

Those I have met so far don’t seem able to grasp the simple fact that this CC, as far as Jobseeker’s Allowance claimants are concerned, is a Jobseeker’s Agreement, emphasis on ‘Agreement’.

They also seem to be unable to grasp that the law says that the use of UJ and this Workbook nonsense is not compulsory and claimants may not be penalised for choosing not to use them. Claimants would be within their rights to refuse to sign up to any agreement that mentions UJ or the Workbook unless agreed to and accepted by them.

I have yet to meet an adviser with the skills and qualifications to conduct this Initial Work Search Interview, they do not appear to me to have been trained to do it. It never ceases to amaze me when I show them DWP Guidance Notes and information that they genuinely are lost for words and resort to lies and threats, it’s not in the script that they have been brainwashed into adhering to.

Instead they are taught to present a CC form with the blanks filled in and then to coerce the claimant, by fair means or foul, even to the extent of compromising their own integrity, to sign it.

The JC staff have supposedly attended several hours classroom training for CC - I posted this link in another thread but here it is again;

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/claimant_commitment_4

Well worth downloading and reading it all as it's the entire staff training course paperwork (including Tutor notes) and will help you when you have your interview - it really threw the adviser I saw when I casually produced it at the start of the interview and constantly checked everything she told me Assuming they weren't all asleep during the course there's no excuse at all for them not knowing the regulations.
avatar
Admin
Admin

Posts : 1088
Points : 2270
Reputation : 119
Join date : 2017-04-13

View user profile http://respectfulbenefits.forumotion.com

Back to top Go down

Re: CREATING A JSAG CC

Post by Admin on Sun Apr 16, 2017 1:33 pm

Make sure you show the adviser you're already doing everything reasonable to look for work - really lay it on for them. Also don't be afraid to argue and negotiate - it's your right and you can end up with a lot less on your Claimant Commitment than if you just sat back and said nothing. It's the ones who don't seem to be doing much jobsearch that they'll pick on and greatly increase the number of tasks per week.

In their CC Staff Training literature it states quite clearly that the '35 hours jobsearch' is not a set requirement and that quality of jobsearch, not quantity is what matters. If a claimant has done all that can reasonably be expected of them in less time then that's absolutely acceptable. The '35 hours looking for work' is just their way of saying 'you should be looking for work at every opportunity'.

Attended signing-on appointment as usual this week. After being asked about how my job searching was going and a cursory glance at the evidence I brought along for inspection the Work Coach seemed overly anxious get on to the process of altering my JSAg to JSAg/CC.

I interrupted and asked that before continuing could she affirm that the signing-on and job search activity review part of this interview was acceptable to her and if she had made the necessary entry authorising the payment of JSA to me for this period to proceed. Her answer was affirmative to both questions.

She then resumed her obviously well rehearsed and oft delivered presentation of the great advantages and merits of the CC. She turned the monitor so that I could see it and read the copy of it on the screen and got all set to fill in the requisite parts.

I asked her to confirm that advisers should now be referred to as Work Coaches as that title now seems to be the one used in DWP documentation. She confirmed this. (Therefore, in the interests of consistency and brevity, I shall henceforth refer to said advisers as WCs)

I asked if the Claimant Commitment was the same as the Jobseeker’s Agreement as far as the law was concerned for claimants who already have a Jobseeker’s Agreement. She confirmed that it was.

I asked if this exchange was the Initial Work Search Interviewreferred to in the Claimant Commitment and My Work Plan Booklet Guidance documents. She affirmed that it was.

I then showed her and read out to her the paragraph in the Guidance stating categorically that during this interview and before entering anything on the CC form “...the Work Coach must have an in depth conversation with a claimant to build an understanding of their capability and circumstances relating to work.”

Here is what it says:

Agreeing and Completing the Claimant Commitment
16. At the Initial Work Search Interview, the Work Coach must have an in depth conversation with a claimant to build an understanding of their capability and circumstances relating to work. Information gathered in this interview must be used to complete the Claimant Commitment.

She insisted that it was common and accepted practice for WCs to build up this understanding from the answers given and any comments made by the claimants as they worked their way through the form. I read out Paragraph 17 again which clearly states “It is important that the Claimant Commitment is completed at the end of the discussion and not during the discussion itself.”

Here is what it says:

17. It is important that the Claimant Commitment is completed at the end of the discussion and not during the discussion itself. In this way, it demonstrates to the claimant that:

the coach has actively listened to the claimant;
the coach has given the claimant full attention;
all the claimant’s circumstances have been taken into account when developing the Claimant Commitment, so it is personal to them; and
the Claimant Commitment is reasonable and achievable.

She repeated that the way she normally conducted such interviews was as she was proposing to conduct this one and that nobody had raised issues or objected before. I pointed out that each claimant has the right and is entitled to be treated as an individual and anything she says with reference to other claimants could or should not influence her conduct in any interview with me and that I cannot be bound by what others may or may not have accepted. I explained that she could be in breach of the DWP’s own Guidance and the law unless she adhered to the correct administrative procedures.

She relented then and agreed to have a discussion as the Guidance suggests. I thanked her and invited her to fire away. She asked me to tell her a bit about myself and specifically my employment history. She confirmed that she did not know anything about me having only met me once before for five minutes two weeks previously.

I gave her a copy of my CV, as this would save me the trouble of reading it out to her, and she began reading through it, asking some questions as she went. I answered each question asked fully and in detail. This took time and she appeared to suddenly realise that she had gone over the allocated time for my interview and told me that we could not continue and our discussion would have to be postponed until my next signing-on appointment as she had gone ten minutes into the time for her next appointment.

I pointed out that we only covered the first 30 years of my life history and that there is another 30 to relate and discuss. She visibly sighed at the prospect.

Before concluding I asked her if I could point out a couple of issues that I find contentious in the CC form that I would be addressing at the next discussion/interview:


1. Any reference to the compulsory use of the UJ site, or to providing DWP with access to my Account on it, to be excluded.


2. Any reference to the compulsory or preferred use of the 'My Work Plan Booklet' to be omitted, that includes the two paragraphs in the CC copied below:


“I understand that detailed planning for how I will undertake these activities is essential to give myself the best chance of success. The 'My Work Plan booklet' will help me to plan and manage how I will do these things and anything else I think will help improve my chances of moving into work. My Coach will work with me on this.”

“I know I must show that I have done all that is reasonable to give myself the best prospects of securing employment. I will keep evidence of what I have done and take this with me every time I go to the Jobcentre. My Work Plan booklet will help me do this.”

3. Clarification of the paragraph included on the CC form about ‘My rights’. It reads as follows:

“I know if there is a disagreement about my Claimant Commitment, I can ask for this to be reviewed. I also know that if there is any dispute about my benefit, my case may be sent to a decision maker, which could result in the loss of my Jobseeker's Allowance and / or National Insurance Credits. If this happens I will be told. If I am not satisfied with the decision I can ask for it to be explained or reconsidered. If I am still unhappy with the outcome I know I have the right to appeal.”

It seems to me that this statement could be interpreted as meaning, yes, I can ask for a review of my CC if I disagree with anything in it but then the WC can refuse to accept any proposal I might make. I have thus instigated a dispute between the WC and myself. The WC will then send my case to a Decision Maker. So, my request for a review has turned into a dispute, dispute turns into a Doubt which is sent to a DM, which action triggers a stop to benefits or sanction while DM reconsiders. So, by seeking a review I am inviting a sanction. I, for one, would be quite happy without such a right.

On the question of UJ she agreed with me that the use of and access to UJ was for me to decide without compulsion.

On the question of the 'My Work Plan Booklet' and ‘My rights’ she was less forthcoming. She said that she wasn’t too sure about the rules and regulations concerning it but would endeavour to educate herself on the subject by the time of our next ‘discussion’.

Finally I left her a copy of the list of activities that I would be prepared to have included in the ‘My actions for getting work’ section of any agreement.
avatar
Admin
Admin

Posts : 1088
Points : 2270
Reputation : 119
Join date : 2017-04-13

View user profile http://respectfulbenefits.forumotion.com

Back to top Go down

Re: CREATING A JSAG CC

Post by Admin on Sun Apr 16, 2017 1:33 pm

It will be recalled that I left the work coach with a list of activities that I would be prepared to have included in the ‘My actions for getting work’ section of any agreement. I am pleased to say that this list was accepted with minor alterations for brevity, and no additional actions were pressed on me.

We then discussed the two paragraphs referring to the Work Plan Booklet in the JSA/CC form and despite accepting that my right not to accept anything to do with the Booklet in any agreement remained inviolate my work coach insisted that she did not have the authority to remove them because they formed a part of the JSA/CC form that could only be removed by executive authority, an Act of Parliament or Statutory Instrument.

To avoid a hurdle that looked like it might scupper what had been agreed thus far we compromised by having inserted in the JSA/CC a clause to the effect that I will take a copy of the booklet and use it for ID purposes only. I am satisfied that this clause along with another that I caused to be inserted to the effect that I will keep a detailed record of my job search ensures that I do not have to use the dreaded Booklet. I did not sign the Booklet or give her leave to enter anywhere that I had accepted anything contained in it.

She said that she found the record that I have already been keeping of my job search activities, and presenting as evidence at each signing-on, more than adequate and said she saw no reason to change it.

The reservations I had about the paragraph setting out ‘My Rights’ were sorted out to my satisfaction as well. Though here again she could not alter the wording to wording of my choosing she agreed that however anyone may choose to interpret it the meaning remains as it was intended in the Jobseeker’s Act 1995 and any request to seek to alter any of the terms or conditions of the JSA/CC would not result in the immediate raising of a Doubt and thereby a possible sanction. It would be passed on to a Decision Maker as now if the work coach and the claimant failed to reach agreement on any alteration that either party might want to have made.

For anyone who may be concerned about any reference to the compulsory use of, or access to, UJM Accounts in a JSA/CC, I had a clause inserted to the effect that I will access UJM, + another half a dozen sites (named) that I use as part of my job search.

(Note that I did not use the term ‘log-on’ or ‘log-in’ to UJM nor did I say that I would access my Account on UJM, neither was allowing DWP or any of its employees access mentioned. This may prove useful at some future date if a less agreeable coach puts pressure on to allow them access to my UJ Account via their internal Jobcentre IADs, or arranging to attend at the Jobcentre every day or whatever to access UJ on their machines, any nonsense like that will nullify the JSA/CC).

Another very important concession that I managed to extract (confirmed on tape) is that my signing the JSA/CC does not in any way diminish, or detract from, my rights as stipulated in the Jobseeker’s Act 1995.
avatar
Admin
Admin

Posts : 1088
Points : 2270
Reputation : 119
Join date : 2017-04-13

View user profile http://respectfulbenefits.forumotion.com

Back to top Go down

Re: CREATING A JSAG CC

Post by Admin on Sun Apr 16, 2017 1:35 pm

extra notes


Well done.
I had the same difficulty in getting all reference to the work plan booklet removed from the text of the CC.
I found a way round this with Marys excellent suggestion and have it in my CC "I will provide evidence of my jobsearch activity in a manner and format of my choosing".
Also got included words to the effect that I will take more than 2 steps per week in order to meet the test of actively seeking employment (regs18/3, (have not got the exact quote on me and have not looked at my CC for many months but its on there).


Yes and No.
Work coach initially suspended my JSA claim and I eventually found out they had used the input code that was a refusal to sign CC on principle.
As soon as I found out JSA was suspended I put in a letter to Decision maker and complaint letter.
JSA was unsuspended after 3 days but again eventually found out DWP had not sent letter to DM.
Eventually had another meeting with a work coach and I made it clear I would not agree another CC unless it contained what I wanted and I was more than happy for it to go to a DM if unagreed.Because of lots of ongoing issues and all sorts of complaints going on,DWP agreed to my CC.
Spoke recently to a work coach about someone elses CC and they work coach admitted to knowing about the correct procedure for a "variation to a CC dispute" and that JSA should not be suspended but work coach said they issued a sanction doubt for not actively seeking employment along with the CC dispute and ensured that one way or another the JSA would get suspended if people disputed CC.
avatar
Admin
Admin

Posts : 1088
Points : 2270
Reputation : 119
Join date : 2017-04-13

View user profile http://respectfulbenefits.forumotion.com

Back to top Go down

Re: CREATING A JSAG CC

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum