Maybe got a new job, training costs and sanctions?

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Maybe got a new job, training costs and sanctions?

Post by Jara on Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:37 pm

I have recently got an offer of employment (39 hours each week). The employer want me to sign an agreement saying I have to pay back costs of training if I leave the organisation before a certain time after the course finishes. The employment starts with an induction as well a level 2 qualification in something that I don't remember. This seems fairly risky to me and I don't want to sign this agreement.

Jobcentre knows of this job offer as it's they who asked me to apply for this job.

What would happen if I refuse to sign this agreement of paying back costs of training and as as a result I won't get this job? Will I get a 13 week sanction?

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Re: Maybe got a new job, training costs and sanctions?

Post by Caker on Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:52 pm

Hello Jara

Someone with advice should be along shortly.

Has the potential employer provided you with a written statement of the costs of the training please? It is not reasonable to sign anything unless you know what you will be liable to repay. If you sign it without knowing the cost in advance then the employer could make up any sum affraid

I presume the training will be necessary for the job and will help the employer's business.

If you do not sign (that is your right) and the employer subsequently withdraws the job offer, that is not refusing employment AFAIK. I am not legally qualified.
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Re: Maybe got a new job, training costs and sanctions?

Post by Jara on Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:10 pm

Hey Caker!

They have not provided me with any written statement on any costs at all. It's a separate paper among the other things I need to sign.

I believe the training courses will be necessary for the job, at least the course that is going along the induction.

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Re: Maybe got a new job, training costs and sanctions?

Post by Admin on Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:11 pm

all depends on the job your going into

with security you had to pay for your uniform at so much a week towards it however tunic had to be returned if you finished

with driving there is a restriction that you would stay with the company so they could get earnings back off your training

both are acceptable however a clause where you cant train up to the next requirement inst your fault so the training wasnt there for you

depending on what the restrictions are you could actually be classed as putting them in the way but you would need to say what they are and what they are wanting
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Re: Maybe got a new job, training costs and sanctions?

Post by Caker on Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:18 pm

@Jara

Ask the employer for a copy of the contract of employment and a full statement of the costs that you could be asked to repay and the circumstances (length of service etc) under which you will be asked to repay.

You may choose not to sign. If you choose not to and the potential employer withdraws the employment offer, that is a confidential matter and must not be disclosed to the job centre or anyone else.

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Re: Maybe got a new job, training costs and sanctions?

Post by Caker on Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:27 pm

May I ask what the job sector is please Jara?

There may be some information that is specific to the occupation.
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Re: Maybe got a new job, training costs and sanctions?

Post by Jara on Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:47 pm

@Admin I don't mind having to sort out uniform, I just feel less sure about upcoming unknown cost that could happen if I get fired or for any other reason stop working with them.

@Caker that is a good idea. I will ask about that. Are you sure it's a confidential matter as I am sure Jobcentre would insist on asking them why I havn't started working with them yet?

I don't know about the sector but the job title is "Support Worker" and entails looking after people with disabilities.

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Re: Maybe got a new job, training costs and sanctions?

Post by Caker on Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:18 pm

Jara wrote:I just feel less sure about upcoming unknown cost that could happen if I get fired or for any other reason stop working with them.

That should be in the detail of the contract. Alarm bells would be ringing for me if the contract said that you would need to pay the money back if dismissed affraid

Now you have mentioned that this is the care sector, I see things more clearly. You should beware!!!

I understand that there are sharks operating in the care sector.

I personally know someone who started a care worker job and was told that the cost of 'training' would be deducted from her salary. This person trusted the employer and did not query anything. She completed online training in her own time and was charged almost her whole first weeks salary. 2p was paid into her bank as 'salary' and the rest was deduction for the 'training'.

Get absolutely everything in writing before you agree to sign a thing. Tell the potential employer that you need to take it away and get advice. We can help you more when we know what is being proposed by the potential employer. That way, there is nothing for the potential employer to report to DWP. You cannot be sanctioned while you negotiate the details of a job.

More scams can be seen in this link:

https://corporatewatch.org/news/2015/jul/24/frustrated-and-disappointed-midas-care-worker-speaks-out


With regard to data sharing, it could be wise to have a word with ICO https://ico.org.uk/global/contact-us/helpline/ as they will be able to advise you more accurately than I can about whether the potential employer can share information about why a job offer is withdrawn; that is what it is, you are not rejecting any job offer.

My suspicion is that if the potential employer is pulling a scam, they would not really like that to be widely known.

Are you able to get any help from a local Citizens Advice Bureau? I know they are not always helpful, but you don't know until you try.
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Re: Maybe got a new job, training costs and sanctions?

Post by Absolut on Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:19 am

The following is about zero hours contracts and is possibly relevant regarding all employment contracts:

https://intensiveactivity.wordpress.com/2014/05/06/zero-hour-contracts-job-centre-coaches-to-mandate-them/

Your interview and agreement of terms and conditions is strictly a private matter between you and the other party/parties involved in said interview/contract. Outside third parties not included/involved in the process have no legal rights to its particular contents with regards you and the other party/parties meaning they are allowed to enquire with said employer as to the generic contents of said contract but not what was discussed personally and privately between the parties involved.
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Re: Maybe got a new job, training costs and sanctions?

Post by Absolut on Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:37 am

http://businessdatabase.indicator-flm.co.uk/business_advice_directory/articles/personnel/how_to_claw_back_your_training_costs/UKTACDAR_EU16200601?q=

Some employers have blanket clauses in their employment contracts which purport to allow them to recover all training fees incurred on the termination of employment, but there are two problems with this approach. Firstly, clauses which give the employer a general right of claw back are generally unenforceable. Secondly, when it comes to recovering training costs, you don’t have an everlasting right.

Training costs agreement

By far the safest way of ensuring that training costs can be recovered is to enter into a separate training costs agreement like the one we’ve created (see The next step ).

Tip 1. Its terms should be agreed and signed by both parties before the training commences; if the employee signs it during or afterwards, the clawback provisions will be unenforceable.

Tip 2. You can require a reasonable minimum period of service after the training has been completed but the period must be reasonable. For example, it’s unlikely that a minimum of two years’ service would be acceptable after a one-day course but it could be if you, say, funded a higher level qualification.

Tip 3. If the employee leaves during the minimum period of service, you can claw back the fees but only on a sliding scale. That’s because you will have benefitted in part from the training.

You’ve no automatic right to claw back training costs if an employee resigns. However, you can protect your investment by asking them to sign a training costs agreement before the course starts. Should they leave within the agreed minimum service period, you can then recover your outlay on a sliding scale.

My comment: the sort of work you mention - support work - is notoriously short term, difficult and stressful. If the agreement is you do not leave within 6 months of the training and you think you can last that long then it may be worth it as you will then leave the job with a qualification you didn't have to pay for.
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Re: Maybe got a new job, training costs and sanctions?

Post by Admin on Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:06 am

there is a 1-2 year training within the wagon driving industry however the training costs are expensive

these are for cat 2 and cat 1 for driving artic wagons
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Re: Maybe got a new job, training costs and sanctions?

Post by helping_hand on Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:12 am

Refusal of employment
When DWP staff refer you to a vacancy, it must always be made clear to you at the time that you may lose your JSA if you fail to apply. This enables you to make your decision in the full knowledge of the possible consequences.

The job must be suitable taking into account your circumstances and should normally be 24hrs or more per week unless you have part-time restrictions within your claimant commitment.  You cannot be mandated to a zero hour contract if you claim JSA.

You cannot show good cause/reason for refusing a vacancy on the grounds that you were not given enough details about it when you were notified. However, if you were offered an unreasonable/unlawful contract you would have good reason for refusing.

Some helpful info here:
http://www2.cipd.co.uk/pm/peoplemanagement/b/weblog/archive/2015/10/05/why-it-is-difficult-to-make-departing-employees-pay-back-training-costs.aspx

DWP contacting the employer
7. The Welfare Reform and Pensions Act 1999 (Section 72) (Relevant Authority) Designation Order 2013 came into effect on 17 July 2013. From this date, where a person in receipt of JSA has been notified about a job by an Employment Officer, that employer is designated as a relevant authority. This means that that employer, or the employees of that organisation, can share with DWP information regarding whether or not a JSA claimant applied for the job in question.
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/192184/response/473959/attach/10/RE%20Guidance.pdf

If you weren't mandated/lawfully notified, DWP is not permitted to contact the employer.

In any event, the employer cannot be forced to provide any information.

Hope all goes well whatever you decide to do.
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Re: Maybe got a new job, training costs and sanctions?

Post by Jara on Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:48 am

@Caker I am feeling very sceptical of all of this.

@Absolut That is exactly my thinking, I may not work there for more than a few months.

@helping_hand I have written below the terms of the agreement with regards to training costs. I find these unreasonable myself, but I am not sure the decision maker at DWP will agree with that.

This agreement my employer want me to sign forces me to pay back 100% of the costs of the course if I leave work or withdraw from the course during the course. I have to pay back 90% of the cost if I leave within three months after the course. 70% of the cost if I leave between three and six months. 50% of the cost if I leave between six and up to 12 months after completing the course. 25% of the cost if I leave between 12 and up to 24 months after the training course.

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Re: Maybe got a new job, training costs and sanctions?

Post by Caker on Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:02 pm

@Jara
How long is the training and has the potential employer said anything about the cost of the training?

Another thing to consider is that the training (if you did it) might be useful if you wanted to pursue a career in the same sector. Only you will know if that is the case; only you know what direction you want to pursue and if the training is relevant to your career plans or just relevant to this particular job.
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Re: Maybe got a new job, training costs and sanctions?

Post by helping_hand on Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:35 pm

I can only find the cost of one Health and Care course, which was Circa £1000.  However, many care courses are funded.

For example:

Looking to achieve a relevant work-based NVQ qualification? Great news, up to 90% funding is now available for all NVQ courses listed below.
https://www.liveandlearnconsultancy.co.uk/adult-apprenticeship-nvq-list/

As Caker has advised you need to know the cost and whether you can do a funded course?

You need to know if the terms negotiable?

Try this service for advice too:

If you can’t find what you are looking for on our website you can chat online with one of our advisers.

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/about-us/contact-us/web-chat-service/

Example Training Cost Agreement
https://tinyurl.com/ybtmazlg


Last edited by helping_hand on Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:40 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Example Training Cost Agreement)
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Re: Maybe got a new job, training costs and sanctions?

Post by Caker on Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:22 pm

@ Jara

Getting back to your original question and what you have told us, I am getting the impression that you really need to know what might happen if you choose not to sign the document that the employer has provided.

In short, you were asking if you will attract a sanction if it becomes known that the employer withdrew the job offer because you chose not to sign i.e. will this situation be treated, by DWP, as you refusing a job?

Is that essentially the query? We would not judge you, whichever option you chose.
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Re: Maybe got a new job, training costs and sanctions?

Post by helping_hand on Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:50 pm

Jara wrote:I have recently got an offer of employment (39 hours each week). The employer want me to sign an agreement saying I have to pay back costs of training if I leave the organisation before a certain time after the course finishes. The employment starts with an induction as well a level 2 qualification in something that I don't remember. This seems fairly risky to me and I don't want to sign this agreement.

Jobcentre knows of this job offer as it's they who asked me to apply for this job.

Were you asked or mandated?

What would happen if I refuse to sign this agreement of paying back costs of training and as as a result I won't get this job? Will I get a 13 week sanction?

If you have been mandated and need assistance with a good reason letter, I can help you once we have all the facts.

These contracts can feel like a gun to your head. There must be a reason why they have included a repayment clause which lasts 24 months; this seems unreasonable for the sector.

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Re: Maybe got a new job, training costs and sanctions?

Post by Jara on Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:35 am

Caker wrote:@ Jara
In short, you were asking if you will attract a sanction if it becomes known that the employer withdrew the job offer because you chose not to sign i.e. will this situation be treated, by DWP, as you refusing a job?

Yes.

helping_hand wrote:
Jara wrote:I have recently got an offer of employment (39 hours each week). The employer want me to sign an agreement saying I have to pay back costs of training if I leave the organisation before a certain time after the course finishes. The employment starts with an induction as well a level 2 qualification in something that I don't remember. This seems fairly risky to me and I don't want to sign this agreement.

Jobcentre knows of this job offer as it's they who asked me to apply for this job.

Were you asked or mandated?

What would happen if I refuse to sign this agreement of paying back costs of training and as as a result I won't get this job? Will I get a 13 week sanction?

If you have been mandated and need assistance with a good reason letter, I can help you once we have all the facts.  

These contracts can feel like a gun to your head.  There must be a reason why they have included a repayment clause which lasts 24 months; this seems unreasonable for the sector.

I wasn't mandated, no letters or papers saying anything I was going to lose my benefit. My work coach told me about this job opportunity through phone.

I also got a bit of an update. Since my last post I called the employer for some clarifications. They only want me to repay training costs if I decide to leave the job voluntary. Now this seems less scary to me and I might be okay to sign it now.

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Re: Maybe got a new job, training costs and sanctions?

Post by Caker on Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:15 am

@Jara

Thanks for the update. I hope everything works out for you. Cool
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Re: Maybe got a new job, training costs and sanctions?

Post by Jara on Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:55 pm

I am meeting my work coach tomorrow. He want to put me on a course to "help" me improve my self confidence and employability, he thinks this course will be good for me to do as the relevant checks for the support worker job could take up to three months. Apparently all their WP completers do this course so it's something I am going have to do if I ever sign on back to JSA.

I recently accepted the job offer, but I will still be on JSA for a few more weeks (or months). I think this course will be fairly useless to me and will just take up valuable time, time I could use to prepare for my potential new job or even look for a much better job.

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Re: Maybe got a new job, training costs and sanctions?

Post by Caker on Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:34 pm

Having completed the WP, I was not sent on a course of this type. It is not accurate to say that all WP completers are sent on the same courses. Your work coach seems to have mislead you about that.  Evil or Very Mad

All/any interventions are expected to address specific assessed needs and bring you closer to the labour market (a job).

In what way has it been established that your self confidence is stopping you from getting work?  confused You were offered a job, so the work coach's opinion is based upon zero evidence  clown

Who is qualified to evaluate your self confidence anyway?   scratch  Have you actually said, to the work coach, that self confidence is a problem for you? Or is the work coach projecting this issue onto you in order to justify referring you to an available course regardless of whether or not it addresses any assessed needs?

I would suggest that having completed a recruitment process successfully, resulting in a job offer, there is no evidence that you have any obstacles to employment (including confidence issues). The opposite is true, you have done well; The employer must think you have just the right qualities for the job. There is nothing to suggest that you would benefit from this course.


Last edited by Caker on Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:38 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : typo)
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Re: Maybe got a new job, training costs and sanctions?

Post by Absolut on Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:55 am

Caker's advice is spot on. It sounds like the roach has to send a certain amount of people on that course and thinks you are an easy target.
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Re: Maybe got a new job, training costs and sanctions?

Post by Jara on Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:13 am

I will bring this up later today with my work coach. Thank you Caker Smile

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Re: Maybe got a new job, training costs and sanctions?

Post by Caker on Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:29 am

'Confidence building' courses must be the easiest to avoid because work coaches are not psychologists and therefore not trained to perform psychological assessments geek

Unless the claimant actually says that lack of confidence is holding them back in job interviews, there is not much evidence that the intervention addresses a specific need. I don't think that a JSD would stand up in a tribunal if any claimant wanted to challenge a sanction in the future.

If a claimant holds a job offer then any type of intervention looks pretty redundant lol!
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Re: Maybe got a new job, training costs and sanctions?

Post by Jara on Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:35 pm

My appointment went well. My work coach kept insisting on putting me on that course, but once I asked to speak with her manager she changed her mind. I might still make a complaint.

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Re: Maybe got a new job, training costs and sanctions?

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