Work and Health Programme part 2

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Re: Work and Health Programme part 2

Post by ABC on Sat May 26, 2018 10:48 am

uncreased wrote:There were lots of people referred to this but only a few places available. Despite keeping my fingers crossed and thinking good thoughts I was not successful in securing one of those places. As you can probably understand, I am so very, very, very, very, very upset.

Ohhhh, I know how much you were looking forward to it as well!  Laughing
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Re: Work and Health Programme part 2

Post by Caker on Sat May 26, 2018 1:19 pm

commiserations
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Re: Work and Health Programme part 2

Post by El-dudeareno on Tue May 29, 2018 2:27 pm

One point I would like to know, is the new W.H.P on a 'rinse and repeat' cycle like the "New-Deal program" every 2x years you are conscripted back on the programs treadmill .  Suspect

As I believe once you have been on the Old Work Program once you didn't have to go on it again?
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Re: Work and Health Programme part 2

Post by ABC on Tue May 29, 2018 3:59 pm

Blimey E-d that really is some pessimistic thinking there mate! We've not even started the first round yet and your mind is on the next cycle after it, some 15 months to 2 years in the future. Sad

Sad how this constant treadmill of useless courses affects our thinking (for the worse).

I just read that they can send us on community-benefit work placements as well! That directly contradicts one FoI that said there wouldn't be any. For me (in the present) that's a bigger worry than whether I'll still be around in a couple of years time for the next round. That and whether we can be mandated to use their in-house search engines. Not sure if anyone found out that or not?

And yet, for some unknown reason, I still haven't been mandated to the WHP yet (fingers crossed, touch wood etc.) and I'm too scared to mention it to my work coach to find out why not in case it sets the ball rolling.
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Re: Work and Health Programme part 2

Post by El-dudeareno on Wed May 30, 2018 11:33 am

Ha Ha Ha @ABC  lol! .

You beat me to my next point ABC, about the matter of CWP/MWA, while on the Work & Health Program. I though the 'Workfare' went  out the window with Cait Reily & Poundland(Tm) case.

Also "That and whether we can be mandated to use their in-house search engines.". Surely if you cannot be forced to use the UJM/FaJ sites, any arguements/FOI will work against using these providers data harvesters?  Question



https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/apr/29/appeal-court-rejects-challenge-in-poundland-case
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Re: Work and Health Programme part 2

Post by Non Deficere on Thu May 31, 2018 7:48 am

El-dudeareno wrote:Ha Ha Ha @ABC  lol! .

You beat me to my next point ABC, about the matter of CWP/MWA, while on the Work & Health Program. I though the 'Workfare' went  out the window with Cait Reily & Poundland(Tm) case.

Also "That and whether we can be mandated to use their in-house search engines.". Surely if you cannot be forced to use the UJM/FaJ sites, any arguements/FOI will work against using these providers data harvesters?  Question



https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/apr/29/appeal-court-rejects-challenge-in-poundland-case

Please note: You cannot mandate to work experience for this programme Very Happy

Chapter 5a
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/678159/whp-provider-guidance-chapter-5a-mandation.pdf
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Re: Work and Health Programme part 2

Post by Jara on Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:38 pm

Does anyone know if they put both people in a joint claim on the WHP at the same time?

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Re: Work and Health Programme part 2

Post by ABC on Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:03 pm

Non Deficere wrote:

Please note: You cannot mandate to work experience for this programme   Very Happy

Chapter 5a
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/678159/whp-provider-guidance-chapter-5a-mandation.pdf

I did see that in the guidance ND but contrarily it later says:
37. A Lower level sanction - includes, without good reason, failure to
comply with a “work for your benefit” scheme, such as the failure to take
part in the WHP.

And by definition a “work for your benefit” scheme must involve the ability to mandate to some sort of work experience - don't you think? Otherwise how is a “work for your benefit” scheme so called if there's no mandated work element to it? That doesn't make sense to me.
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Re: Work and Health Programme part 2

Post by Non Deficere on Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:02 pm

Jara wrote:Does anyone know if they put both people in a joint claim on the WHP at the same time?

Hi Jara,

If you're still claiming credits only, you cannot be mandated to the W&HP.

If not, you will go through the assessment process. You can ask for copy via freedom of information request.
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Re: Work and Health Programme part 2

Post by Non Deficere on Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:19 pm

ABC wrote:
Non Deficere wrote:

Please note: You cannot mandate to work experience for this programme   Very Happy

Chapter 5a
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/678159/whp-provider-guidance-chapter-5a-mandation.pdf

I did see that in the guidance ND but contrarily it later says:
37. A Lower level sanction - includes, without good reason, failure to
comply with a “work for your benefit” scheme, such as the failure to take
part in the WHP.

And by definition a “work for your benefit” scheme must involve the ability to mandate to some sort of work experience - don't you think? Otherwise how is a “work for your benefit” scheme so called if there's no mandated work element to it? That doesn't make sense to me.

Hi ABC,

The scheme is not a work for your benefit scheme. It is, primarily, a programme to assist people with health issues to prepare for work or into employment.

Unlike the work programme provider guidance, there is no mention of a Community Placement in the WHP provider guidance.

Work experience is voluntary.
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Re: Work and Health Programme part 2

Post by ABC on Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:31 pm

Non Deficere wrote:The scheme is not a work for your benefit scheme.

Ok, but the statement

37...failure to comply with a “work for your benefit” scheme, such as the failure to take
part in the WHP

seems to me to say that the WHP is a “work for your benefit” scheme! I can't interpret that particular statement in any other way...unless it's an error?
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Re: Work and Health Programme part 2

Post by Non Deficere on Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:05 am

The Mandatory Work Activity programme, described by charities as a “work for your benefits” scheme, sees people referred to do up to 30 hours a week unwaged work in exchange for not losing the £73.10 payment.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/dwp-scraps-mandatory-work-for-your-benefits-scheme-without-fanfare-a6750041.htmlThe W&HP guidance does not define work experience.

MWA and CWP were scrapped, because they did not deliver results.

Mandating LTU participants to undertake activity that attracts a Low/Lower Level sanction

9. The activity should be something that will help LTU participants with more tailored support than is available in the Jobcentre Plus Offer, enhancing their employment prospects in order to achieve sustained employment.

Jobcentre Plus can arrange work experience.

24. DWP has pre-approved a list of compliance conditions for providers to
use. These compliance conditions are:
• Contact the provider and agree a date for future attendance and
attend re-arranged appointment.
• Undertake agreed work preparation activity (or agree to and
undertake this activity at an agreed future date where it cannot be
completed on the same day).
• Supply specific information (relevant to work-related requirements).
• Agree a date for future attendance at an appointment/placement with
a third party (i.e. college, skills training course) where the third party
cannot arrange for same day and attend the re-arranged
appointment.

Work preparation does not include work experience within the W&HP.

Please note: You cannot mandate to work experience for this programme.

Edit:

Community/work placement has been removed from the latest provider guidance.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/678185/whp-provider-guidance-chapter-8-compliance-doubt.pdf

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/mandatory_work_placements_commun


Last edited by Non Deficere on Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:42 am; edited 2 times in total
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Re: Work and Health Programme part 2

Post by Jara on Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:18 am

Non Deficere wrote:
Jara wrote:Does anyone know if they put both people in a joint claim on the WHP at the same time?

Hi Jara,

If you're still claiming credits only, you cannot be mandated to the W&HP.

If not, you will go through the assessment process.  You can ask for copy via freedom of information request.

Me and my partner will soon (month or so) be claiming income-based JSA.

I am just interested what to expect now at the Jobcentre with this new W&HP. I don't think either of us will qualify as 24 months LTU-group as we have not claimed income-based JSA since October 2017. Although I started claiming NI credits at the start of April, so not sure if my 2017-period will be linked up with the April-2018 claim.

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Re: Work and Health Programme part 2

Post by Non Deficere on Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:39 pm

Jara wrote:
Non Deficere wrote:
Jara wrote:Does anyone know if they put both people in a joint claim on the WHP at the same time?

Hi Jara,

If you're still claiming credits only, you cannot be mandated to the W&HP.

If not, you will go through the assessment process.  You can ask for copy via freedom of information request.

Me and my partner will soon (month or so) be claiming income-based JSA.

I am just interested what to expect now at the Jobcentre with this new W&HP. I don't think either of us will qualify as 24 months LTU-group as we have not claimed income-based JSA since October 2017. Although I started claiming NI credits at the start of April, so not sure if my 2017-period will be linked up with the April-2018 claim.

I do not think you will have to worry about the W&HP.
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Re: Work and Health Programme part 2

Post by El-dudeareno on Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:46 pm

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Re: Work and Health Programme part 2

Post by Admin on Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:55 pm

an update for this via mr zola

There is no specific legislation that requires a Work and Health Programme (WHP)
voluntary participant to give a reason for declining to sign an action plan

https://mrfrankzola.wordpress.com/2018/08/01/work-and-health-programme-you-do-not-have-to-sign-any-whp-documents-or-give-reasons-for-not-signing-donotsign/
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Re: Work and Health Programme part 2

Post by El-dudeareno on Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:19 am

I am a little confused here #Admin. Do you know what a "Action plan" as definded by the JCP can include. As I was just wondering if its a 'catch 22' situation where you could be 'mandated' to sign a form that you don't wish to? Basketball

"A WHP mandatory participant is expected to comply with any mandated activities set out in the action plan but again no legislation compels them to sign or provide reasons for refusing to sign, however, a failure to adhere to the mandated actions set out in the plan may lead to a compliance doubt referral being raised. ”

https://mrfrankzola.wordpress.com/2018/08/01/work-and-health-programme-you-do-not-have-to-sign-any-whp-documents-or-give-reasons-for-not-signing-donotsign/
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Re: Work and Health Programme part 2

Post by Admin on Sun Aug 05, 2018 3:56 pm

if it was anything to do with the workprograme action plan

its a signed document that dosnt have to be signed either

they tried with me to create one i refused to do so at the time just as much as i wouldnt give them any info on what things i was looking for or my cv info it has nothing to do with them

therefore no action plan could be made up for me by them they also went down the sanction route as well

everything goes back to the old work programme stuff even in this case
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Re: Work and Health Programme part 2

Post by Non Deficere on Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:43 pm

To clarify, the activities within a mandatory scheme action plan are only mandatory if a lawful MAN is issued. No signature is required within the AP.

The JCP action plan is not mandatory either and no signature is required.
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Re: Work and Health Programme part 2

Post by Admin on Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:00 am

just a note here with universal credit the work programme is mandatory

UniversalCredit fact: Work Experience is mandatory and not “voluntary”

https://mrfrankzola.wordpress.com/2018/08/06/universalcredit-workfare-is-mandatory-and-not-voluntary-discuss/
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Re: Work and Health Programme part 2

Post by Non Deficere on Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:56 am

Participation in work experience is on a purely voluntary basis for UC claimants too.

Reference: K5121 & K5123

http://respectfulbenefits.forumotion.com/t1700-adm-work-experience-when-claiming-universal-credit#5448
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Re: Work and Health Programme part 2

Post by El-dudeareno on Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:31 pm

Guaranteed 3 x month work experience placement (K 5067)

Also a side point are there any rules with regards to hrs/days the a placement-person can perform. As you hear about people being told to work 7x days a week, and unsociable hours to boot  No .
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Re: Work and Health Programme part 2

Post by Non Deficere on Wed Aug 08, 2018 5:24 pm

El-dudeareno wrote:
Also a side point are there any rules with regards to hrs/days the a placement-person can perform. As you hear about people being told to work 7x days a week, and unsociable hours to boot  No .


The length of the placement (which can be between 2 and 8 weeks, up to 12 weeks when linked to an apprenticeship,or up to 3 months for some young people aged 18 to 21, f[b]or up to 30 hours per week)
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/employers-could-you-offer-work-experience/work-experience-employer-guide

However, the 'volunteer' can decline the offer of unpaid work experience at any time without fear of a sanction! Very Happy
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Re: Work and Health Programme part 2

Post by Jara on Wed Aug 08, 2018 5:58 pm

Non Deficere wrote:However, the 'volunteer' can decline the offer of unpaid work experience at any time without fear of a sanction! Very Happy

That's great to hear.

I am a bit curious as to why this have changed? I remember schemes like CWP which forced people to do unpaid work, but are now scrapped. I thought DWP and the government loved these mandatory schemes? Not that I am complaining Smile

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Re: Work and Health Programme part 2

Post by El-dudeareno on Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:50 pm

Thanks for the posting Non-Def  Smile , one point thou the term ‘Volunteers’. Does this include any participant to whom is ‘mandated’ via their work coach etc, and therefore not really a volunteer? So people could get caught out if they decline the opportunity?  Question

"However, the 'volunteer' can decline the offer of unpaid work experience at any time without fear of a sanction! "




https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/employers-could-you-offer-work-experience/work-experience-employer-guide

"How it works  

Work experience through Jobcentre Plus will enable young, unemployed people (or other age groups) to volunteer for placements lasting between 2 and 8 weeks, or longer (up to 3 months) for some young people. These volunteers will be matched with suitable host employers and complete a light touch selection process."

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Re: Work and Health Programme part 2

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