Work and Health Programme part 2

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Work and Health Programme part 2

Post by Absolut on Thu Jun 22, 2017 6:13 am

From Frank Zola:

https://mrfrankzola.wordpress.com/2017/06/20/dwp-says-health-and-work-conversation-booklet-not-mandatory-only-conversation/

The HWC is a claimant led conversation so claimants can decide whether they want to discuss  their health. If claimants do not wish to discuss their health the work coach will tailor the discussions based on what they are comfortable discussing.

The My Values exercise is an optional exercise that claimants can complete during the HWC. The work coach will ask the claimant whether they want to complete the My Values Exercise. A sanction would not apply for not completing the My Values exercise.

Where a claimant doesn’t complete the HWC booklet but participates and engages in the conversation, a failure to participate sanction will not apply.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/health_and_work_conversation_hwc#incoming-994509
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Re: Work and Health Programme part 2

Post by El-dudeareno on Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:01 pm

"Where a claimant doesn’t complete the HWC booklet but participates and engages in the conversation, a failure to participate sanction will not apply."

It seem like making a rod for your own back, also can the work-roach etc make notes about this converstion without the claimants knowledge?
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Re: Work and Health Programme part 2

Post by Mary_FV on Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:02 pm

Declaring relevant health information/other circumstances protects a claimant from unfavourable treatment and can also trigger safe guarding protocols.

I cannot identify any issues with a JC official making notes about information discussed with consent during a work focused interview.
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Re: Work and Health Programme part 2

Post by Caker on Thu Jun 22, 2017 7:22 pm

It makes sense to complete the booklet and keep a copy as evidence of what has been disclosed. It could help prevent the JC worker from back tracking by denying the content of the discussion later if challenged.
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Re: Work and Health Programme part 2

Post by Absolut on Fri Jun 23, 2017 7:19 am

At least claimants can print out and take the FOI with them and if told by a JC worker that not filling in the booklet will result in a sanction, the claimant can show the opposite.
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Re: Work and Health Programme part 2

Post by Caker on Fri Jun 23, 2017 7:59 am

Yes, this is quite similar to the 'my work plan' booklet which no one is obliged to use.

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Re: Work and Health Programme part 2

Post by El-dudeareno on Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:01 am

Caker wrote:Yes, this is quite similar to the 'my work plan' booklet which no one is obliged to use.


And yet Caker, I still see claimants holding these booklets, as they walk into the JCP? Rolling Eyes
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Re: Work and Health Programme part 2

Post by Caker on Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:57 am

Not everyone is clued up. They were most likely told the booklet is mandatory. Suspect
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Re: Work and Health Programme part 2

Post by ABC on Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:43 pm

Ignoring the HWC booklet and My Values exercise, neither of which I would voluntarily participate in, I don't see any benefit from refusing to tell the Jobcentre all your health related problems. For me having those health related restrictions has narrowed my job search so much that I have an incredibly easy time of it only taking a few hours each week.

So what would be the drawbacks of discussing one's health? I can't think of any.

It also occurs to me that while we don't have to fill in these stupid questionnaires we do have to participate so if the claimant refuses to use the questionnaire all the wc will do is ask the questions from the questionnaire and if you don't respond you are failing to participate and a sanction ensues! Evil or Very Mad
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Re: Work and Health Programme part 2

Post by Mary_FV on Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:52 am

There is no requirement to discuss medical/health information with the JC official and no sanction can applied for failing to do so.


Last edited by Mary_FV on Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Work and Health Programme part 2

Post by Absolut on Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:27 am

ABC wrote:I don't see any benefit from refusing to tell the Jobcentre all your health related problems. For me having those health related restrictions has narrowed my job search so much that I have an incredibly easy time of it only taking a few hours each week.

I agree, but in my own case, discussing barriers to work with my WC was a waste of time. Her overall attitude towards me (under JSA) was that I was either outright lying about my condition or I was exaggerating. She was so bad that she even tried to get me to attend a WFI at a time when I couldn't walk. She would do very well working for Maximus if it wasn't for the fact that she has no medical qualifications  Laughing .

In the end I think discussing barriers to work all depends on which WC you get and what their attitude is, overall, towards "work" itself (which is wage slavery) and how far they are in agreement with the overt disability discrimination as reflected in government policies.

The HWC booklet, btw, is a very good example of the DWP being geared towards getting the claimant to see themselves as being able to overcome barriers that have been placed there by employers and society in general and which they can't actually remove. It's the happy, clappy (and discredited) "positive psychology" rubbish at its worst.
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Re: Work and Health Programme part 2

Post by Mary_FV on Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:43 am

If anyone has difficulties achieving reasonable adjustments via discussion I would suggest a formal letter, which in my experience has been a successful way of being treated favourably.

I cannot find a letter in Jobseeker Help just now.  I will look for it later.

Burden of proof

Balance of probabilities

Subject to the shift in burden of proof (below), it is for the claimant to prove the facts on which s/he relies, in particular to prove that s/he has a disability (if that is disputed) and that there has been discrimination.

Proof just needs be on a 'balance of probabilities'. In other words, the tribunal will decide whether it is more likely than not that the claimant's version of the facts is true.

So evidence does not have to be conclusive. Often there will not be direct evidence as to whether an employer discriminated. The tribunal may make inferences from the facts that are proved or not disputed. Cases may turn on which party's evidence the tribunal believes. The employer's internal emails and documents (below) may also be useful evidence.


http://www.stammeringlaw.org.uk/discrimination/proving.htm
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Re: Work and Health Programme part 2

Post by Caker on Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:32 am

Absolut wrote:
The HWC booklet, btw, is a very good example of the DWP being geared towards getting the claimant to see themselves as being able to overcome barriers that have been placed there by employers and society in general and which they can't actually remove. It's the happy, clappy (and discredited) "positive psychology" rubbish at its worst.

That is exactly the impression which I got from the booklet. The questions are all suggestive of intrinsic 'failures' of the claimant whilst totally ignoring any extrinsic (labour market) factors, to the extent of pretending extrinsic factors don't exist. This is disingenuous and could have a devastating impact upon a vulnerable claimant. It is the usual DWP victim blaming. Evil or Very Mad
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Re: Work and Health Programme part 2

Post by Mary_FV on Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:45 pm

A mention here...

refuted‏ @refuted 6h6 hours ago
Pro&Con views on doing DWP's new Work&Health questionnaire http://respectfulbenefits.forumotion.com/t293-work-and-health-programme-part-2 … @lynnefriedli @Dis_PPL_Protest @MHResist @Shrink_at_Large

...and here:

https://mrfrankzola.wordpress.com/2017/06/20/dwp-says-health-and-work-conversation-booklet-not-mandatory-only-conversation/
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Re: Work and Health Programme part 2

Post by Caker on Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:03 pm

Off topic (sort of):

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/work_and_health_programme_tariff?nocache=incoming-996447#incoming-996447

the payment schedule for the WHP.

It appears that the programme lasts for 465 days if the the participant remains unemployed, but continues up to the 639 day if they should be fortunate enough to get a job (and therefore require in work support Rolling Eyes ).
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Re: Work and Health Programme part 2

Post by Mary_FV on Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:21 am

In work support is not mandatory. Very Happy
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Re: Work and Health Programme part 2

Post by El-dudeareno on Wed Jun 28, 2017 11:46 am

Sorry one point Caker, on the FOI it says the program last for 456 days , you posted 465 days?  Question

“A participant will be deemed to have completed the programme as follows:
• participation on programme automatically ends, at 456 days from the date the participant started on the programme, where the participant is not in employment at this point; or
• where the participant is in employment at the end of the 456 day period, such that In Work Support may be provided, the programme for the participant will then end no later than 639 days from the date the participant started on the programme. In response to your final point, as per previous answers outcome payments are dependent on earnings thresholds not duration of employment. “




456 Days = 14.9803 Months = 14 Months, 4 Weeks, 1 Day, 20 Hours, 13 Minutes and 20 Seconds


http://unitconverter.io/days/months/456


https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/work_and_health_programme_tariff?nocache=incoming-996447#incoming-996447



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Re: Work and Health Programme part 2

Post by Caker on Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:59 pm

Mary_FV wrote:In work support is not mandatory. Very Happy

On that note, you can just cease contact if you start a job. Since payment is claimed via HMRC information there is no incentive for the programme provider to maintain contact anyway. That being the case, I wonder what the rationale is for the difference in duration Suspect I presume in this case, it is something to do with helping to negotiate reasonable adjustments with the new employer. I wonder how that will work out in practice.

Out of curiosity, has anyone ever received 'in work support' from DWP/WP provider? If so, how useful was it?
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Re: Work and Health Programme part 2

Post by Admin on Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:28 pm

Caker wrote:
Mary_FV wrote:In work support is not mandatory. Very Happy

On that note, you can just cease contact if you start a job. Since payment is claimed via HMRC information there is no incentive for the programme provider to maintain contact anyway. That being the case, I wonder what the rationale is for the difference in duration Suspect I presume in this case, it is something to do with helping to negotiate reasonable adjustments with the new employer. I wonder how that will work out in practice.

Out of curiosity, has anyone ever received 'in work support' from DWP/WP provider? If so, how useful was it?

chuckle thats if they get any info in the first place otherwise they cant claim anything if you just plainly disappear from the system
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Re: Work and Health Programme part 2

Post by Mary_FV on Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:53 pm

The W&HP provider should only take a light touch approach to participants who start work.

The most helpful support would be to ensure people have the in work adaptations as well as the finances and expenses they are entitled to.


Last edited by Mary_FV on Wed Jun 28, 2017 11:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Work and Health Programme part 2

Post by Caker on Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:04 pm

El-dudeareno wrote:Sorry one point Caker, on the FOI it says the program last for 456 days , you posted 465 days?  Question

“A participant will be deemed to have completed the programme as follows:
• participation on programme automatically ends, at 456 days from the date the participant started on the programme, where the participant is not in employment at this point; or
• where the participant is in employment at the end of the 456 day period, such that In Work Support may be provided, the programme for the participant will then end no later than 639 days from the date the participant started on the programme. In response to your final point, as per previous answers outcome payments are dependent on earnings thresholds not duration of employment. “




456 Days = 14.9803 Months = 14 Months, 4 Weeks, 1 Day, 20 Hours, 13 Minutes and 20 Seconds


http://unitconverter.io/days/months/456


https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/work_and_health_programme_tariff?nocache=incoming-996447#incoming-996447




I made a mistake Embarassed Well spotted El Dude Very Happy
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Re: Work and Health Programme part 2

Post by Caker on Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:06 pm

Admin wrote:
Caker wrote:
Mary_FV wrote:In work support is not mandatory. Very Happy

On that note, you can just cease contact if you start a job. Since payment is claimed via HMRC information there is no incentive for the programme provider to maintain contact anyway. That being the case, I wonder what the rationale is for the difference in duration Suspect I presume in this case, it is something to do with helping to negotiate reasonable adjustments with the new employer. I wonder how that will work out in practice.

Out of curiosity, has anyone ever received 'in work support' from DWP/WP provider? If so, how useful was it?

chuckle thats if they get any info in the first place otherwise they cant claim anything if you just plainly disappear from the system

Yes, you are onto something there.
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Re: Work and Health Programme part 2

Post by Mary_FV on Wed Jun 28, 2017 11:48 pm

Blurb from the Salvation Army... I imagine the W&HP provider role will be similar.

Job life coaches work with employees and employers to ensure the best method of support is provided whether that is a fortnightly phone call to ensure the working relationship is functional, issues can arise but with the help of a job life coach can be easily resolved to ensure work is sustainable. In speaking to employers, job life coaches can obtain a sense of where the issue might have arisen from and work to resolve this, for example, transportation issues or additional training requirements. This in-work support provides employers and employees with security, knowing that someone is there to help. Participants also receive advice on financial issues at our centres as we work closely with local advice agencies.

On occasions when the role is not working, job life coaches work to support the employee to ensure they do not fall back into unemployment.


https://www.salvationarmy.org.uk/work-support


Last edited by Mary_FV on Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:48 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Add info)
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Re: Work and Health Programme part 2

Post by Mary_FV on Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:14 am

FOIs to watch
Failure to attend or participate in a Health and Work Conversation (HWC) interview at the Jobcentre
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/failure_to_attend_or_participate#incoming-998499

Full copies of your Health and Work Conversation procedures and guidance documents
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/full_copies_of_your_health_and_w#outgoing-662817


Last edited by Mary_FV on Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:53 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : addional link)
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Re: Work and Health Programme part 2

Post by Absolut on Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:55 am

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/403081/response/1004962/attach/html/6/04%20HWC%20training%20My%204%20Steps%20v3.0.pdf.html

All the training modules are written as if work coaches are dealing with 5 year olds but the authors' mindset really comes through in Slide 9:

Internal obstacle - "feeling lazy".

They just had to get lazy in there somewhere.

As pointed out in the comments on the FOI (https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/full_copies_of_your_health_and_w#comment-79029) it's very close to the 12 steps AA program. They even use alcohol as an example.

Don't forget though, in the HWC "conversation" - 'you don't have to be perfect'. drunken
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Re: Work and Health Programme part 2

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