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Timing of a second UC claim.

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Post by Caker Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:33 pm

I have been working for 7 weeks. My job started a few days after my UC payment, so within the following assessment period (had I remained on UC). I closed my claim and I have been working ever since.

I know my finish date and it is soon. I will have worked through what would have been the assessment period following my final one. I have not earned enough to trigger the surplus earnings calculation. I am now in the 2nd assessment period (If I was still on UC). By the time I finish, I will not have earned enough, in any month, to trigger the surplus earnings calculation, so not so worried about that.

My query is:  if I make a 2nd claim (this is within 6 months, so the 6 month rule applies here) will it be rejected because I have earned more than the nil UC threshold in that month? Will it be closed immediately?

EXAMPLE My final pay date (from my job) is 11th October but my assessment period ends on 25th October.

My final pay will be more than nil UC threshold so I don't expect a UC payment that month.

Would it be best to:-

*. Make a claim as soon as I have received my final wage on 11th October?
Or
*. Wait until after 25th October, as by then I will be in an assessment period in which I have earned nil.

I am thinking about the 5 week waiting period. I don't think there is a rapid reclaim with UC, as there was with JSA. I might be wrong.

I know that making a reclaim within 6 months means the assessment periods run on as if the claim was not broken by work, even if the person closed their claim when starting work.

Thanks, in anticipation of any advice.


Last edited by Caker on Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:50 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : typo)
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Post by Committed Claimant Tue Sep 24, 2019 9:43 am

The information on the Citizens Advice site might answer your questions:

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/universal-credit/claiming/reapply-for-universal-credit/

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Post by Caker Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:49 pm

Very helpful, many thanks.
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Post by Committed Claimant Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:02 pm

It may also help to inform or remind you if you check out the thread at:

https://respectfulbenefits.forumotion.com/t3535-universal-credit-signing-back-on

On this thread you advised another member with a similar predicament on how to proceed
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Post by Caker Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:27 pm

Thanks for that reminder CC.

I was planning to wait until I had received my final payment from work in any case.

However, I was just not too sure whether that would get included in the calculation if I made my new claim within the same assessment period as the final payment even though I will have had no claim in place at all on the date I received the final payment IYSWIM.

It is all a bit trial and error for me and I don't want to fall into any UC traps. (Insert banana skin icon here)
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Post by Caker Wed Sep 25, 2019 6:27 pm

What I meant to say is that the situation I describe in this thread and the situation in the other thread, are both different.

This one is about making a claim AFTER the final wage payment but WITHIN the same assessment period (because the schedule of assessment periods stay the same if you make a new claim before 6 months has passed).

To be clear, my next assessment period starts on 25th October and runs untill 24th November; I will have received no wages in it because my final wage will be paid on 11th October, so that is the assessment period I am in now (25th September to 24th October, although I have no claim because I am working).

If I make my new claim on 12th October, will my earnings before that be included in any calculation? If yes, I will be due no UC payment but will my new claim be closed Question


Timeline:
24th sept END OF ASSESSMENT PERIOD (no claim as I was working)
25th sept START OF ASSESSMENT PERIOD (no claim as I was working still)
11th Oct.  final wage
12th Oct. Make new claim now  Question  confused
24th Oct. END OF ASSESSMENT PERIOD - earnings were more than UC so nil UC due
25th Oct. START OF NEW ASSESSMENT PERIOD - earnings are nil in this period

If it will not be closed but I just get nil and then a UC payment in November then so far so good.

If it is closed then I am faced with claiming again after 25th October confused
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Post by Admin Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:01 am

ive got no idea caker so im kinda watching this post but i suspect it would be 25th october

anything to make the claimant lose money than gain it
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Post by Committed Claimant Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:35 am

Just in case you haven’t read it, check out this link:

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/317043/response/783603/attach/3/617%20Universal%20Credit%20Reawards%20rapid%20reclaims%20run%20ons%20Policy.pdf

As I read it, if you don’t re-claim within 7 days of your job ending you may have to answer for it, face further complications and grief, and there is a chance that you could lose out in the long run by the time they finish faffing and messing you about.

Reclaims when previous employment ends

Claimants whose Universal Credit entitlement ends due to an increase in earnings (and who subsequently become unemployed within 6 months) will return to their previous Universal Credit assessment period:

if the claimant makes a new claim for Universal Credit within 7 days of their job ending, they will be paid Universal Credit for the whole of the assessment period in which they made the new claim

if the claimant doesn’t make a new claim for Universal Credit within 7 days of their job ending, they will have to show good reason for not doing so:  

if they can show good reason, they will receive payment of Universal Credit for the whole of the assessment period in which they made the new claim  

if they cannot show good reason, they will not receive a payment of Universal Credit for the whole assessment period in which they made the new claim - instead they will only receive a payment from when they made the claim to the end of the assessment period
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Post by Guest Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:03 am

I don't think good reason applies here, because Caker is not entitled to any payment in the current assessment period.

https://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forums/viewthread/10325/

The only benefits are, claiming NI credits if applicable and the lovely support No from the DWP officials!  lol!


Last edited by Non_Deficere2 on Thu Sep 26, 2019 2:48 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : typo)

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Post by Caker Thu Sep 26, 2019 2:41 pm

Committed Claimant wrote:if the claimant makes a new claim for Universal Credit within 7 days of their job ending, they will be paid Universal Credit for the whole of the assessment period in which they made the new claim


Now this is the bit that got me confused. I will be paid seven days after my job ends and I will still be in an assessment period in which I earned above the nil UC threshold; on that note, I expect to not be entitled to any UC if HMRC have told DWP what I earned before I claimed.

I think you have got it right ND.

Thanks everyone.
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Post by Caker Thu Sep 26, 2019 2:44 pm

Having read the link, I am happy to report that my situation is less confusing than the person in the link. I get paid weekly but as my earnings are above the nil UC threshold I just signed off completely when I started the job. I have not made any contact with DWP since then.
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Post by Caker Thu Sep 26, 2019 2:50 pm


John Blackwell (Rightsnet) wrote:or the moment you’re correct (for around say 95% of potential UC claimants.) That six month rule applies only in the ‘live service’ areas but not in the ‘full service’ (It’s part of reg 6 of the UC, etc Claims and Payment regs which is abolished in the full service areas.).  So eventually everyone will have to make a new claim (*) after any nil entitlement assessment period.

* IIRC correctly DWP have said that reclaims will be ‘‘streamlined’ in these cases but I’m still not clear exactly what that means.


So if I am in a full service area then the 6 month rule will not apply. I have no idea if I am or not, but I think I am.


Last edited by Caker on Thu Sep 26, 2019 6:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Guest Thu Sep 26, 2019 3:28 pm

If you have a digital claim you are in a Full Service area and the 6 month rule applies.  All areas became full service in 2018.

8. Claiming Universal Credit within 6 months of your previous claim ending

If you qualify for Universal Credit again, you will continue to keep the same monthly assessment period as you had in your previous claim.

Speak to your work coach if there is a gap in your Universal Credit payments and you need help to budget and manage your money more effectively.

You will need to claim Universal Credit online again. When you log in to your online account, the claim will show your circumstances on the date you last got Universal Credit.

You just need to confirm that the details in your account are correct to claim again automatically.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/universal-credit-different-earning-patterns-and-your-payments/universal-credit-different-earning-patterns-and-your-payments-payment-cycles#claiming-universal-credit-within-6-months-of-your-previous-claim-ending

http://data.parliament.uk/DepositedPapers/Files/DEP2019-0465/Re-claims_v5.0.pdf

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Post by Caker Thu Sep 26, 2019 6:17 pm

Thanks ND

I think it should be straight forward then. I will just make my claim on the day after I get paid and see what happens from there. scratch
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Post by marky Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:55 am

I closed my claim earlier this year for around 3/4 months because i had some temp work and i can confirm the 6 month thing about having the same assessment period is nonsense

I think we can worry ourselves too much when looking at official documentation but the reality is so different in real life'

All i did was make a new claim online and my new assessment period started the day i made the claim and was completely different to the old one. I even got a 2nd new claim advance aswell despite having one less than a year before

edit - yes i am digital claim in full service area. still nonsense, to me anyway

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Post by Committed Claimant Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:17 am

marky wrote:I closed my claim earlier this year for around 3/4 months because i had some temp work and i can confirm the 6 month thing about having the same assessment period is nonsense

Thank you very much for this post Marky. Your comments as someone who has actually been through the process are much appreciated and should be heeded by those of us who haven’t actually been through it.

Can you remember how many days after your job finished did you reclaim UC?

I think we can worry ourselves too much when looking at official documentation but the reality is so different in real life'

You are absolutely right here. We sometimes tend to treat official documentation, especially from DWP, as gospel, despite having been advising for years not to do so. Your point is well made and ought to be borne in mind.

All i did was make a new claim online and my new assessment period started the day i made the claim and was completely different to the old one. I even got a 2nd new claim advance aswell despite having one less than a year before

Did this include a new Claimant Commitment? Were you given any opportunity to discuss and/or agree it before accepting it, or was it a case of take it as they offer it or leave it and have your claim closed down?

edit - yes i am digital claim in full service area. still nonsense, to me anyway
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Post by Caker Sat Sep 28, 2019 9:11 am

So in a full service area with a digital claim (UCj) I presume you just make a new claim and your old journal a/c gets reactivated.

Mine remains visible after the claim closed, but there is a message on it to tell me that I could not add anything to it whilst I have no claim (which is to be expected).
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Post by Guest Sat Sep 28, 2019 10:27 am

Further information...

rightsnet wrote:If you claim UC within six months of last being entitled to it, the AP cycle is inherited from the previous award.  If you lose your job part way through the inherited AP, your final payment of earnings in that AP might be less than you have been getting during the past few months - it might be low enough that you qualify for a reasonable wedge of UC.  If you claim within 7 days, you will get your whole month’s UC; if you delay, you will only get a part month’s UC based on apportioned max UC and apportioned income.  Arithmetically I think it works out the same as if you calculated a whole month’s UC and then reduced the award pro rata.
rightsnet wrote:Yes you are right that both the ‘Max UC’ and the ‘income’ are apportioned according to the number of days left in the assessment period.  What you are saying is right Will ... in some situations a claimant will want to argue that the 7 days should be extended because they have ‘good cause’ for the delay in reclaiming and should therefore benefit for an assessment for the whole assessment period.  In other situations it would be beneficial for them to wait (for example if expecting a last payment of earnings) and then reclaim outside of the 7 days and get the apportioned UC.
On a practical note, I wonder if the ‘payment’ screen of the UC system has actually been developed to show this calculation so that a person can understand that they have a partial month payment, and how it has been worked out.  This will clearly be more complicated in cases where there is income.

https://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forums/viewthread/12116/#56688

The regulations

Assessment periods

21.—(1) An assessment period is, subject to paragraph (5), a period of one month beginning with the first date of entitlement and each subsequent period of one month during which entitlement subsists.

(2) Each assessment period begins on the same day of each month except as follows—

(a)if the first date of entitlement falls on the 31st day of a month, each assessment period begins on the last day of the month; and

(b)if the first date of entitlement falls on the 29th or 30th day of a month, each assessment period begins on the 29th or 30th day of the month (as above) except in February when it begins on the 27th day or, in a leap year, the 28th day.

(3) Where an award of universal credit has terminated and a further award is made without a claim by virtue of regulation 6 or 9 of the Universal Credit, Personal Independence Payment, Jobseeker’s Allowance and Employment and Support Allowance (Claims and Payments) Regulations 2013(1) (“the Claims and Payments Regulations”), each assessment period in relation to the new award begins on the same day of each month as the assessment period in relation to the old award.

(4) Where the further award is to a couple jointly in a case where each of them had an award that terminated when they became a couple, the old award for the purposes of paragraph (3) is the one they nominate or, if they fail to nominate one, the one which the Secretary of State determines.

(5) Where, because the time for making a claim for universal credit is extended by virtue of regulation 26(2) of the Claims and Payments Regulations, the first date of entitlement falls before the date on which the claim is made—

(a)the first assessment period is the period beginning with the first date of entitlement and ending with the day before the date on which the claim is made; and

(b)paragraphs (1) and (2) apply to the second and subsequent assessment periods as if the date on which the claim is made were the first date of entitlement.

(6) The amount payable in respect of that first assessment period is to be calculated as follows—

where N is the number of days in the period and A is the amount calculated in relation to that period as if it were an assessment period of one month.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2013/9780111531938/regulation/21


Deduction of income and work allowance

22.—(1) The amounts to be deducted from the maximum amount in accordance with section 8(3) of the Act to determine the amount of an award of universal credit are—

(a)all of the claimant’s unearned income (or in the case of joint claimants all of their combined unearned income) in respect of the assessment period; and

(b)65% of the amount by which the claimant’s earned income (or, in the case of joint claimants, their combined earned income) in respect of the assessment period exceeds the work allowance.

(2) The amount of the work allowance is—

(a)if the award contains no amount for the housing costs element, the applicable amount of the higher work allowance specified in the table below; and

(b)if the award does contain an amount for the housing costs element, the applicable amount of the lower work allowance specified in that table.

(3) In the case of an award where the claimant is a member of a couple, but makes a claim as a single person, the amount to be deducted from the maximum amount in accordance with section 8(3) of the Act is—

(a)all of the couple’s combined unearned income in respect of the assessment period; and

(b)65% of the amount by which the couple’s combined earned income in respect of the assessment period exceeds the work allowance,

and the applicable amount of the work allowance is the same amount as for joint claimants.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2013/9780111531938/regulation/22


Last edited by Non_Deficere2 on Sun Sep 29, 2019 6:40 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Caker Sat Sep 28, 2019 3:38 pm

So if I make a new claim on 12th October, there will be 12 days left of that assessment period, as it ends on 24th October.

Does that mean that I will receive 12 days worth of UC, even though I have earned in excess of that amount since the assessment period started on 24th September?

My understanding was that if my earnings exceed the UC amount then I would not be entitled to UC for the duration of that assessment period. The new advice seems to contradict that.
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Post by Guest Sun Sep 29, 2019 6:39 am

Caker wrote:So if I make a new claim on 12th October, there will be 12 days left of that assessment period, as it ends on 24th October.

Does that mean that I will receive 12 days worth of UC, even though I have earned in excess of that amount since the assessment period started on 24th September?

My understanding was that if my earnings exceed the UC amount then I would not be entitled to UC for the duration of that assessment period. The new advice seems to contradict that.

In light of the error rates* within the UC system I am now thinking that it might be worth your while to claim on 12/10, which may trigger a new assessment period (marky's scenario) and you would receive a full award. The alternative is to claim within 7 days of you leaving employment.

*Universal Credit bosses have been criticised for the staggering number of errors they are making with the new welfare scheme. There are more mistakes with paying Universal Credit than with any other benefit.

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/universal-credit-bosses-blasted-more-16507589



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Post by Admin Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:13 am

marky wrote:I closed my claim earlier this year for around 3/4 months because i had some temp work and i can confirm the 6 month thing about having the same assessment period is nonsense

I think we can worry ourselves too much when looking at official documentation but the reality is so different in real life'

All i did was make a new claim online and my new assessment period started the day i made the claim and was completely different to the old one. I even got a 2nd new claim advance aswell despite having one less than a year before

edit - yes i am digital claim in full service area. still nonsense, to me anyway

thankyou for your information marky it helps when someone else has been through it already

its appreciated and welcomed here
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Post by Caker Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:17 am

Yes, thank you Marky. Your contribution has definitely given me a new insight into my situation.

And also thanks to ND who is always a mine of information.

cheers
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Post by Caker Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:36 am

Hi Marky

Just read through your response again. When you said you made a 'new' claim online, does that mean you went through the entire claim process as before, using https://www.gov.uk/apply-universal-credit   ?

OR, do you mean that you made the claim by clicking on green 'make new claim' tab in the online account and claimed that via that method?

Would the first method be treated as a 'new' claim, whilst the second method be treated as just restarting your old claim?

Would making a 2nd claim (not via the existing UC account) result in the creation of a 2nd UC account? What would happen to the first account? Would you then have 2?

Is this where the confusion is occurring for DWP?

confused


Last edited by Caker on Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:50 am; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : typo)
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Post by marky Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:50 pm

Caker wrote:Hi Marky

Just read through your response again. When you said you made a 'new' claim online, does that mean you went through the entire claim process as before, using https://www.gov.uk/apply-universal-credit   ?

OR, do you mean that you made the claim by clicking on green 'make new claim' tab in the online account and claimed that via that method?

Would the first method be treated as a 'new' claim, whilst the second method be treated as just restarting your old claim?

Would making a 2nd claim (not via the existing UC account) result in the creation of a 2nd UC account? What would happen to the first account? Would you then have 2?

Is this where the confusion is occurring for DWP?

confused

Forgive me, for my memory isn't great and i don't want to say anything incorrect but i'll say what i definitely know.

When my account was closed and i logged into my journal i could no longer access or read anything i'd put on there. I think I just got greeted with a generic message "Your claim was closed on ____ because ____"

But when I went to reclaim I DEFINITELY logged into my old account and did it via there. I can't remember what i clicked or whether it was green or whatever, but i was definitely logged in and i definitely clicked something because i assumed for one it would save me the hassle of filling out everything - it didn't.

I basically had to fill in everything as if i was making an application for the first time.

The only thing I didn't have to do was create a new username, password or security details - it was the same as before so they should definitely know it was a reclaim within 6 months

Infact I remember after submitting the claim my UC account/journal basically reset. And the first things in my journal were the entries you get when you make a claim. I was half expecting to see my old entries, but no. Nothing.

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Post by Caker Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:55 am

Thanks Marky, that is similar to my experience.
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