JSA to ESA

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JSA to ESA

Post by Absolut on Fri May 19, 2017 10:44 am

GP issued fit note for me from today for 2 months. I've no extended sick left and according to the rules under JSA I cannot claim that I am unable to seek work at all. My fit note is for a long term disability that needs an operation. There is no way I can work until the surgery has taken place and then after that I will be unable to work for at least 6 weeks.  As far as I can tell I need to claim ESA from today's date as submitting a JSA28 would be incorrect?

Sorry for the substantial edit but my initial question wasn't correct.


Last edited by Absolut on Fri May 19, 2017 11:52 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : initial question did not reflect jsa rules)
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Re: JSA to ESA

Post by Mary_FV on Fri May 19, 2017 12:45 pm

Absolut wrote:GP issued fit note for me from today for 2 months. I've no extended sick left and according to the rules under JSA I cannot claim that I am unable to seek work at all. My fit note is for a long term disability that needs an operation. There is no way I can work until the surgery has taken place and then after that I will be unable to work for at least 6 weeks.  As far as I can tell I need to claim ESA from today's date as submitting a JSA28 would be incorrect?

Sorry for the substantial edit but my initial question wasn't correct.

Yes, that is correct. You can claim for your OH and he can sign for NI credits if he wishes/needs to. When claiming NI credits he does not have to participate in any mandatory provision/courses.

I hope the operation is a success!

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Re: JSA to ESA

Post by Absolut on Fri May 19, 2017 12:53 pm

Thanks Mary. JSA to ESA rules are a bit confusing, especially after a previous period of long term sick. Found this though:

https://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201415/ldselect/ldsecleg/133/13306.htm

ESA will remain a more appropriate benefit for claimants with a long-term health condition which will limit their ability to meet the full conditionality requirements of JSA over the longer term.

Mary_FV wrote:I hope the operation is a success!

Thank you. Me too.
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Re: JSA to ESA

Post by Absolut on Sat May 20, 2017 10:04 am

What are the rules regarding WFIs during the ESA assessment phase?
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Re: JSA to ESA

Post by Mary_FV on Sat May 20, 2017 12:10 pm

Absolut wrote:What are the rules regarding WFIs during the ESA assessment phase?

You may receive a WFI letter. However, all the ones I have seen have been voluntary.

If you live in a Full Service UC area you may have to claim UC. The rules are different.

https://www.welfare-benefits-unit.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/What-triggers-a-claim-for-Universal-Credit-in-a-full-service-area.pdf
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Re: JSA to ESA

Post by Absolut on Sat May 20, 2017 1:45 pm

There is no UC for joint claim couples in my area until next March.
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Re: JSA to ESA

Post by Mary_FV on Sat May 20, 2017 3:24 pm

Absolut wrote:There is no UC for joint claim couples in my area until next March.

That is good to read!

Hopefully, you won't be contacted until you are invited to a WCA.


Last edited by Mary_FV on Sat May 20, 2017 3:48 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : typo)
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Re: JSA to ESA

Post by Absolut on Sun May 21, 2017 9:18 am

Thanks. The information online is contradictory but I found this FOI with a reponse dated February this year.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/377193/response/940944/attach/3/IR%2039%20reply.pdf

What is the official DWP policy of mandating people in the ESA assessment phase to attend a WFI?
The Department believes that it would be beneficial to engage with claimants early in their claim. Prior to 2010 the Department did call claimants in to attend and participate in a work focused interview in the assessment phase. With the introduction of the Health and Work Conversation we intend to re-introduce this early engagement with claimants to help support them.

Please supply any guidance issued to DWP/JCP staff regarding calling people in the assessment phase of ESA to attend WFI.
Health and Work Conversation guidance is under development and will be available to DWP staff in time for HWC roll-out.

As far as I know the H&WC is going to go live in September?
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Re: JSA to ESA

Post by Mary_FV on Sun May 21, 2017 9:42 am

Yes, the H&WP is going live in the Autumn this year.

I have a friend who has made an ESA claim this week, I will follow with interest.

Let us know how you get on.

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Re: JSA to ESA

Post by Absolut on Sun May 21, 2017 10:18 am

In my look at recent FOIs I came across some DWP training materials from a response dated January this year. It's regarding training new work coaches in the Plymouth JCP.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/red_amber_green_jobcentre_classi#incoming-926884

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/374620/response/926876/attach/3/Annex%20A%20wcdm%20caseloading%20strategy.pdf

Caseloading Priorities Examples – Light Touch sub-caseload

• a claimant who is not required to look for work, and is not interested in taking any steps to prepare for work at the present time. This may include:–

ESA claimants in the assessment phase
ESA claimants in the support group
IS carers or lone parents with a child under one
Claimants in receipt of Statutory Sick Pay who have a job to return to.

The work coach may wish to maintain contact with these claimants occasionally and continue to encourage them to engage with the support available.

As it's in the DWP's official training materials I'd say that was definitive proof that a WFI during the assessment phase is entirely voluntary Wink
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Re: JSA to ESA

Post by Mary_FV on Sun May 21, 2017 5:04 pm

Unlike UC, old style ESA claimants cannot be required to undertake WRA in the assessment phase at this time.

Thanks for the FOI info.



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Re: JSA to ESA

Post by Caker on Sun May 21, 2017 5:09 pm

I have not been invited to any JC intervention since claiming ESA in c Spring 2016.
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Re: JSA to ESA

Post by Absolut on Mon May 22, 2017 8:53 am

Following on from my question about can a work coach ask a claimant about their health condition I came across the following ESA rule, which I was not previously aware of:

53130 Claimants entitled to Employment and Support Allowance are disqualified for receiving it for a period decided by the decision maker up to a maximum of 6 weeks if they:

2. fail without good cause to attend for or submit to medical or other treatment (excluding vaccination, inoculation or major surgery) recommended by a doctor with whom, or a hospital or similar institution with which, the claimant is undergoing medical treatment, which would be likely to remove the limitation on the claimant’s capability for work.

53140 Treatment as at DMG 53130 2. has to be for the cause of limited capability for work.  Medical treatment means medical, surgical or rehabilitative treatment (including any course or diet or other regimen).

Does "entitled" to ESA mean only after a decision has been made regarding which group the claimant is in following a WCA?
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Re: JSA to ESA

Post by Caker on Mon May 22, 2017 10:45 am

Absolut quoted:-

2. fail without good cause to attend for or submit to medical or other treatment (excluding vaccination, inoculation or major surgery) recommended by a doctor with whom, or a hospital or similar institution with which, the claimant is undergoing medical treatment, which would be likely to remove the limitation on the claimant’s capability for work.

This is something I was not aware of. My understanding is that no claimant could be compelled to undergo any medical intervention whatsoever, regardless.

Does anyone know if this DWP guidance is also to be found in the law?

My understanding is that informed consent must be obtained (and documented) before any clinical intervention is performed. Any patient is entitled to refuse any treatment whatsoever. A clinician would be leaving themselves wide open to an assault charge if they performed treatment that the patient had not given consent to (i.e. they did not indicate that they wanted it / indicated they did not want it). DWP guidance appears to be seeking to subvert this by threatening destitution if the person does not consent to treatment (which they may not want and are entitled to refuse).

I suspect that this particular DWP guidance would not hold up to legal scrutiny. I could be wrong.

study
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Re: JSA to ESA

Post by Caker on Mon May 22, 2017 10:47 am

Sorry Absolut, that my reply did not answer your question, but just raised another question. Neutral
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Re: JSA to ESA

Post by Absolut on Mon May 22, 2017 11:53 am

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Re: JSA to ESA

Post by Absolut on Mon May 22, 2017 12:09 pm

The claimant has to prove
1. good cause and
2. that a refusal of treatment was reasonable in the circumstances.

Guidance on misconduct may be relevant if the misconduct being considered would have resulted in dismissal from employment and a sanction for JSA. Conduct which is blameworthy, reprehensible, wrong or wilful should be distinguished from involuntary behaviour due to other factors (1).
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Re: JSA to ESA

Post by Absolut on Mon May 22, 2017 12:41 pm

Trying to find the thinking behind this clause is like plaiting fog, but I did find this comment:

https://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200506/cmstand/a/st061031/pm/61031s05.htm

Mrs. McGuire:

we would not anticipate using this power in any overwhelming way.

we would use it only where, for example, a claimant disregarded without good cause advice from their general practitioner or hospital specialist regarding generally accepted, reasonable and non-invasive treatment that would significantly improve their condition. The GP will determine the medical advice, although it will be an issue for Jobcentre Plus advisers to decide about whether there is good cause to disregard that advice.

The powers under the clause are intended specifically to deal with those people who wilfully or intentionally try to get round the regulations relating to the new employment and support allowance by not following standard medical advice. For example, someone may not take their medication to manage their condition, which would put them in a worse medical condition than if they had followed standard advice.

There is the issue of customer consent to information. It has to be informed consent. I appreciate that that is one of the issues that I mentioned earlier about whether someone fully understands what they are giving consent to. It is for the general practitioner to send Jobcentre Plus the information relevant to the benefit entitlement, not some of the wider issues that may affect the individual.

This is about misconduct that leads to an injury or refusal to follow health and safety advice, for example. That is what is intended under the clause. Although a number of organisations have expressed some concerns, I hope that the Committee will accept my reassurances that there will be adequate training for staff and safeguards will be put in place so that customers are always given the opportunity to explain their actions before any disqualification occurs.
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Re: JSA to ESA

Post by Caker on Mon May 22, 2017 2:47 pm

Absolut wrote:Here is the relevant ESA regulation:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2008/794/regulation/157/made


Thanks for this Absolut. This makes the position look quite dictatorial and coercive. What is especially concerning is that it creates a 2 tier system; people who are compelled to undertake medical intervention and people who are free to withhold consent. This opens a new debate Evil or Very Mad

apologies that I keep butting in to your thread Embarassed

This deserves a new thread.
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Re: JSA to ESA

Post by Absolut on Mon May 22, 2017 4:15 pm

It's ok, I went off topic but it can be relevant for people moving from JSA to ESA.
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