CC agreement - hours

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CC agreement - hours

Post by Absolut on Sun May 07, 2017 1:52 pm

On my CC it states that I am available to work up to 40 hours per week (subject to restrictions surrounding my disabilities). I have 2 disabilities; 1 that affects my mobility and the other that affects my right hand.  In order get off all benefits I need to work at least 24 hours a week. The roach I see keeps repeatedly saying that I am expected to apply for and accept jobs that are 16 hours per week (it's JSA not UC and it's a joint claim with a term time only income coming in). The roach has also implied that as their office cleaner has 4 jobs that I should too.

In the regs it says:

34424 if a claimant refuses or fails to apply for or accept employment that is for less than 24 hours a week, the claimant will have good cause. 1JSA Regs,reg 75(3); 2 reg 72(5A)(a); 3 reg 72(5A)(b)

Clearly I can refuse to apply for or accept employment of fewer than 24 hours per week. Does my roach know something I don't? Have the regs been abolished?
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Re: CC agreement - hours

Post by Admin on Sun May 07, 2017 2:31 pm

your advisor is trying to force you down the 16hr route there is a minimum hrs and 16 hrs isnt it anymore weather if your looking after children or not

you can refuse the lower hrs than the minimum but if you do get the minimum required 24hrs a week your still held within an unjust system that hassles you to get another job elsewhere and your still jobsearching which is means tested by universal credit


Last edited by Admin on Sun May 07, 2017 7:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: CC agreement - hours

Post by Caker on Sun May 07, 2017 5:14 pm

I would be inclined to quote the regs to this roach. If s/he says the regs have changed then ask for that in writing and a link to the 'new regs'.

Other than that, a FOI might sort it out.
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Re: CC agreement - hours

Post by Absolut on Mon May 08, 2017 11:00 am

Thanks for your replies. I found the most recent update of the JSA DM regs on sanctions (chapter 34) and it says:

Claimants should not be mandated to vacancies of
1. less than 24 hours where that is not appropriate or
2. where a claimant has a pattern of availability of less than 24 hours, to vacancies where the hours are less than 16 hours a week.

The DM must only then consider hours on the basis of good reason as a fact of the case rather than an automatic allowance, bearing in mind that the hours alone may not in itself count as good reason. The DM should consider all the available evidence and information the claimant presents covering the reasons for their actions and the circumstances in which they were in. The number of hours is just one factor the DM should consider in the overall picture of the claimant’s circumstances.

Example:
Sergei fails to apply for a notified job vacancy and states that when he checked out the details of the vacancy with the employer it was for 10 hours a week and his JSAg shows he has a pattern of availability of over 24 hours a week. The advisor has confirmed with the employer that the vacancy was for 10 hours. The claimant has good reason for not applying for the vacancy.

I got my CC out this morning and it shows my pattern of availability as Monday to Friday between 8am and 6pm but under the "most hours I can work each week" it has a 0 (zero). Prior to the Disability Advisor restricting my hours in December to 8-6 the "most hours I can work each week" was 40.

As my pattern of availability is 50 hours per week but the "most hours I can work" is zero where does that leave me regarding the roach making out that I MUST take up work of 16 hrs a week? (Caker: I will ask for it to be put in writing the next time she tries it on as it might be time to test just how far she thinks she can go with this particular tactic.)

Even if I did manage to get a part time job paying minimum wage (and with no travel costs) our income would yo-yo causing rent arrears and ultimately homelessness because the housing benefit system can't cope with a couple where one has a permanent 16 hour contract and the other one is on zero hours.
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Re: CC agreement - hours

Post by Admin on Mon May 08, 2017 11:37 am

to note you don't have a restriction on your hrs in a week to work, that zero should have a set number of hrs within it

id advise to get this changed to something if your wanting to restrict your hrs of work

within the form there/or was a statement of restriction of hrs of work each week with a number to be displayed within it
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Re: CC agreement - hours

Post by Caker on Mon May 08, 2017 3:08 pm

Absolut wrote:........under the "most hours I can work each week" it has a 0 (zero).

Treating the statement semantically (as I am inclined to do, as I am very pedantic lol! ), it appears that 'zero' is the 'most' hours you can work each week i.e. you cannot work more than 'zero' (according to this CC), so technically there is no job of any hours that you can possible do, if you comply with this statement.

The statement appears to prohibit any type of work.  I'm sure that is not at all what the roach intended when filling in the CC.

Does anyone else think it looks like that Question
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Re: CC agreement - hours

Post by Absolut on Mon May 08, 2017 4:16 pm

Caker wrote:The statement appears to prohibit any type of work.  I'm sure that is not at all what the roach intended when filling in the CC. Does anyone else think it looks like that Question

That's how I read it too. What a Face

Admin wrote:id advise to get this changed to something if your wanting to restrict your hrs of work

That's the thing, I don't want to restrict it. It's my roach who wants to force me to take part time work of 16 hrs a week. As far as I am aware it isn't DWP policy that claimants don't work full time if they are capable of doing so, which I am if an employer and the DWP would deign to follow the Equality Act and make reasonable adjustments. At the very least the "restriction" should be over 24 hrs per week and up to 40.
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Re: CC agreement - hours

Post by ABC on Mon May 08, 2017 4:56 pm

Unless it's causing you problems I'd leave it at zero because if a doubt is raised on your claim for any reason related to hours it's a technical "get out of jail free" card. You can argue that the intended figure was meant to be whatever you deem most appropriate at the time to avoid a sanction (being forced to apply for a part time job perhaps?). The Jobcentre will argue that it was such and such a figure but it's your word against theirs and in the absence of any other corroborating evidence the figure on the CC is what stands. if you alert them to it I can only see the figure being adjusted in their favour.
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Re: CC agreement - hours

Post by Tarquin Flotsam on Mon May 08, 2017 11:04 pm

My CC stating hours available to work was changed after producing a fit note stating I was unable to do full time work due to spinal problems. It was agreed hours would be altered to 24 hours a week max available for work. The fit note has long expired but my CC hasn't been changed since then, even after switching jobcentre the same hours were drawn up.

This is where it gets confusing. This is how it's looked on my CC since mid February, and nobody has thought to change it... Thoughts?

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Re: CC agreement - hours

Post by Mary_FV on Tue May 09, 2017 8:35 am

I am still popping on here from time to time.

This topic makes me laugh and cry!

TF, don't say anything about your ridiculous CC. Laughing
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Re: CC agreement - hours

Post by Caker on Tue May 09, 2017 9:46 am

@TF I agree with Mary. You are free to apply for jobs of any hours but at least you cannot be mandated to jobs over 24 hours. Nothing to stop you applying for them if you wish. Very Happy
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Re: CC agreement - hours

Post by Absolut on Tue May 09, 2017 10:04 am

ABC wrote:I'd leave it at zero because if a doubt is raised on your claim for any reason related to hours it's a technical "get out of jail free" card

Very Happy Thanks. I agree.
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Re: CC agreement - hours

Post by Tarquin Flotsam on Tue May 09, 2017 10:39 am

Caker wrote:@TF  I agree with Mary. You are free to apply for jobs of any hours but at least you cannot be mandated to jobs over 24 hours. Nothing to stop you applying for them if you wish. Very Happy
It would also stop me being mandated for any of their stupid courses, of which a new one was mentioned to me at my last appointment. But I managed to avoid being referred to this one (something to do with Travelodge and customer service) by mentioning I'm currently doing an online course at a higher level and the mention of the decision maker finding it inappropriate to mandate me for these courses soon ended my roach's phone call to the course provider and I was sent on my way... Very Happy

Also, as they often state (incorrectly) that I must follow ALL steps on my CC, then I should also point out to them I am available for 24 hours a week, but not from Sunday to the following Saturday in any week. bom
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Re: CC agreement - hours

Post by Mary_FV on Tue May 09, 2017 1:39 pm

Tarquin Flotsam wrote:
Caker wrote:@TF  I agree with Mary. You are free to apply for jobs of any hours but at least you cannot be mandated to jobs over 24 hours. Nothing to stop you applying for them if you wish. Very Happy
It would also stop me being mandated for any of their stupid courses, of which a new one was mentioned to me at my last appointment. But I managed to avoid being referred to this one (something to do with Travelodge and customer service) by mentioning I'm currently doing an online course at a higher level and the mention of the decision maker finding it inappropriate to mandate me for these courses soon ended my roach's phone call to the course provider and I was sent on my way... Very Happy

Also, as they often state (incorrectly) that I must follow ALL steps on my CC, then I should also point out to them I am available for 24 hours a week, but not from Sunday to the following Saturday in any week. bom

If any doubt was raised, it would come to nought!

Your CC is irrational, thus unlawful.

You cannot be available for 24 hrs per week and zero hours per day.

The CC is invalid and the error is not a mere slip of the pen!


Last edited by Mary_FV on Wed May 10, 2017 10:01 am; edited 2 times in total
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Re: CC agreement - hours

Post by ABC on Tue May 09, 2017 4:06 pm

Caker wrote:...You are free to apply for jobs of any hours but at least you cannot be mandated to jobs over 24 hours. Nothing to stop you applying for them if you wish. Very Happy

Hmmm, you have to be careful with that because they will claim you are not ASE as you are applying for jobs you can't take (because they are over the 24 you have agreed is the limit). Not saying it would stick but there have been a few people in that situation in the past.
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Re: CC agreement - hours

Post by Caker on Tue May 09, 2017 5:28 pm

Obviously don't tell them about those jobs. Just declare other job applications to meet the quota.
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Re: CC agreement - hours

Post by Absolut on Wed May 10, 2017 11:15 am

The most hours I can work per day is also zero on my CC despite earliest start time set as 8am and the latest as 6pm. There are zero hours I can work each week along with zero hours I can work each day.

Is it a coincidence that 2 people with identified disabilities both have "most hours I can work per day" set at zero?
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Re: CC agreement - hours

Post by Caker on Wed May 10, 2017 1:11 pm

.....Just looks like roach stupidity to me but it could be something else.
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Re: CC agreement - hours

Post by ABC on Wed May 10, 2017 1:27 pm

I have to agree with Caker here, it's just sloppy housekeeping on the work coach's part. I've got restrictions based on health but my hours are still 40 per week so the disabilities thing is just coincidence. If it isn't causing you any immediate problems I wouldn't mess with it because it'll potentially work in your favour.
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Re: CC agreement - hours

Post by Absolut on Wed May 10, 2017 1:54 pm

ABC wrote:I have to agree with Caker here, it's just sloppy housekeeping on the work coach's part. I've got restrictions based on health but my hours are still 40 per week so the disabilities thing is just coincidence. If it isn't causing you any immediate problems I wouldn't mess with it because it'll potentially work in your favour.

Yeah, you're probably right that it's an error on their part. I'll stay stum about it and see how it goes.
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Re: CC agreement - hours

Post by ABC on Wed May 10, 2017 9:59 pm

Absolut this might be of use to you as well:
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/374462/response/909093/attach/html/6/Ch%2003%20Using%20Universal%20Jobmatch.pdf.html

Claimant has agreed a pattern of availability of 24 hours or more
per week
100.  Where a claimant has agreed a pattern of availability on their Claimant
Commitment of 24 hours or more per week and the hours recorded on the
job are clearly less than 24 hours per week, you cannot notify the
claimant to apply for the job.
101.  However, if the hours of the job were not recorded by the company you
can notify them to apply for the job if the job is recorded as full time.
102.  Where a claimant has agreed a pattern of availability on their Claimant
Commitment of 30 hours per week and the hours recorded on the job are
40 hours per week, you cannot notify the claimant to apply for the job.    
Claimant has agreed a pattern of availability of less than 24 hours
per week
103.  Where a claimant has agreed a pattern of availability on their Claimant
Commitment of less than 24 hours per week and the hours recorded on
the job are clearly less than 16 hours per week, you cannot notify the
claimant to apply for the job.
104.  However, if the hours of the job were not recorded by the company you
can notify them to apply for the job if the job is recorded as part time.
105.  Where a claimant has agreed a pattern of availability on their Claimant
Commitment of 17 hours per week and the hours recorded on the job are
20 hours per week, you cannot notify the claimant to apply for the job.  
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Re: CC agreement - hours

Post by ABC on Wed May 10, 2017 10:16 pm

What is the "pattern of availability" in this context? Is it the figure written in the box labelled "Most hours I can work each week" or is it the sum of the hours you've agreed to work each day?
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Re: CC agreement - hours

Post by Absolut on Thu May 11, 2017 7:59 am

ABC wrote:What is the "pattern of availability" in this context? Is it the figure written in the box labelled "Most hours I can work each week" or is it the sum of the hours you've agreed to work each day?

Good question. I wonder how would a DM see it? Even though there's no other numbers it's clearly 10 hours per day over 5 days and that's definitely over the mimimum 16 per week and maximum of 40 per week.

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Re: CC agreement - hours

Post by ABC on Thu May 11, 2017 11:20 am

I found a wc guide that I've temporarily misplaced again that makes it quite clear that the "pattern of availability" is the hours you can work each day over the week. So if you've agreed to 9-5 Monday to Friday your pattern of availability will be 40 hours even if the "most hours I can work each week" has, for example, 20 hours in it (perhaps to take account of your restrictions). I looked at mine and I have 0800 - 1800 on every day which is 70 hours! affraid   I'm only required to have 40 so I'm going to have to get that sorted sharpish.
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'Old Style' JSA Claimant Commitment

Post by Mary_FV on Thu May 11, 2017 12:01 pm

Agreeing working hour restrictions:

The hours each day is the availability pattern.  The the total hours each day is the maximum the person can work on a particular day taking into account all their circumstances.

The total weekly hours (bottom column) can often be different to the sum of the daily total.

Example
Jenny has caring responsibilities for a child of school age. She has the use of
a breakfast club on two days a week and an after school club on one. Her
partner also doesn’t work on Wednesdays. She has agreed the following
hours of availability with her Work Coach.
Day Earliest start time Latest finish time Most hours I can work
Monday 9:00am 15:00pm 6
Tuesday 8:00am 15:00pm 7
Wednesday 7:00am 18:00pm 8
Thursday 8:00am 15:00pm 7
Friday 9:00am 18:00pm 8
Saturday 9:00am 17:00pm 8
Sunday
Most hours I can work each week: 40

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/250147/response/611633/attach/5/Claimant%20Commitment%20Guidance.pdf


Last edited by Mary_FV on Thu May 11, 2017 12:02 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added link)
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