How to avoid the Work & Health Programme

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How to avoid the Work & Health Programme

Post by Non Deficere on Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:44 pm

I thought it may be helpful to explore how people can avoid the W&HP! Smile

My intention is to examine the information available and post ideas here.

I would be grateful if no-one posts until all the potential ideas are presented.

Many thanks!
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Re: How to avoid the Work & Health Programme

Post by Non Deficere on Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:06 pm


Post in progress
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Re: How to avoid the Work & Health Programme

Post by El-dudeareno on Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:12 pm

Yes I good idea N-D  study . However, I thought it was up to the Work-Roach to put claimant forward to the Health & Work Program? From those to meet the eligibility criteria as the program has been started?



http://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7845

https://www.gov.uk/work-health-programme


Last edited by El-dudeareno on Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:14 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : repeat of info)
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Re: How to avoid the Work & Health Programme

Post by El-dudeareno on Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:25 pm

Quote N-D:

Page 5

JCP Work Coaches will determine whether someone should be referred to the
programme.
• An individual can be referred on a targeted basis, by a work coach when the
following criteria are met:
– that Jobcentre Plus (JCP) has already helped the individual with their core
job search activity
– the claimant needs more support than can be provided within the standard
JCP offer (or through other available services and provision)
– the individual can be helped by the offer
– that the claimant is able to achieve the goal of finding employment within a
realistic time period. We are setting a guideline of one year

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:vG-th7TngDAJ:https://www.base-uk.org/sites/default/files/document-archive/10407WorkshopProgramme/a1_-_whp.pdf+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk

The only point I can see N-D so far is that you could challenge to get out the HWP is that:  “the claimant needs more support than can be provided within the standard JCP offer (or through other available services and provision)”. To whom is the onus to prove that the claimant need this extra support?  As I have been on plenty of course that where a waste of money sending people on courses, to whom didn’t need  a basic level skills course. Question
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Re: How to avoid the Work & Health Programme

Post by Non Deficere on Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:51 pm

El-Dude,

Patience is a virtue ! :-)

I'm waiting for further data.  

I will post all the information shortly!


Last edited by Non Deficere on Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: How to avoid the Work & Health Programme

Post by El-dudeareno on Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:46 pm

Non Deficere wrote:El-Dude,

Patience is a virtue ! Smile

I'm waiting for further data.  

I will post all the information shortly!



Sorry I came over like that N-D Shocked .... I just thought I was adding to the conversation?
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Re: How to avoid the Work & Health Programme

Post by Caker on Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:37 pm

El Dude wrote:............... To whom is the onus to prove that the claimant need this extra support?  As I have been on plenty of course that where a waste of money sending people on courses, to whom didn’t need  a basic level skills course.  Question    



My suspicion is that any person who has not started a job within a particular timescale (much like the 12 month period under JSA) will be deemed to 'need extra support'


It is the same mantra that has been chanted by DWP/WPP all along. The blame is always upon the jobseeker (intrinsic factor). The labour market situation (extrinsic factor) is never acknowledged. This is the disingenuous stance that we have always been aware of. Rolling Eyes

'Lack of skills' is consistently blamed for lack of work. When a skilled person is out of work, they are told (the lie) that it is because they lack skills, or motivation, or both
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Re: How to avoid the Work & Health Programme

Post by El-dudeareno on Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:52 am

I agree with you @Caker about blaming the job seeker for all the trouble in the country. However, I feel in these times of 'austerity'. That the money spent on these programs/course could be better sent on other things?  Basketball

Also does the Work-Roach  clown  have to enter a reason why they think the WHP will be beneficial to the claimant. Rather than just to get them 'off stream'/off the books for 15 months?

You forgot the 'Reasonable' mantra sung from the JCP's minaret's aswell Caker.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/feb/20/work-programme-success-creaming-parking
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Re: How to avoid the Work & Health Programme

Post by Caker on Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:42 pm

El-dudeareno wrote:I agree with you @Caker about blaming the job seeker for all the trouble in the country. However, I feel in these times of 'austerity'. That the money spent on these programs/course could be better sent on other things?  Basketball



I agree with you 100%. I believe the WCs know perfectly well that the courses are of no benefit to a significant proportion of those referred to them.

I am watching this topic with interest too Basketball
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Re: How to avoid the Work & Health Programme

Post by Non Deficere on Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:25 pm

Hello E-D,

It was not my intention to curtail the conversation. I was simply trying to establish all the facts before asking for comment and, feedback as per my initial post.   However, I understand the subject matter is important to many people.

Mandatory referrals will not take place until April 2018, so we have time to get our ducks/options in a row.

Brief summary of what I/we know to date:

We have established that the Jobcentre 'work coach' will identify potential mandatory as well as voluntary participants for the Work & Health Programme.

The assessment/suitability tool is completed in secret after the potential participant has left the interview.

The wc cannot overturn the random selection process.

We have not yet established:

The precise details of the policy that affects potential participants of the scheme, or how, specifically the programme will assist certain groups/individuals.

We do not have a copy of the provider guidance??

We do not know the exemption/exclution criteria.

We do not know specifically how the 24 months+ unemployed is calculated or when participants have to return if they leave.


Last edited by Non Deficere on Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: How to avoid the Work & Health Programme

Post by Caker on Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:50 pm

I feel a FOI coming on Wink





Last edited by Caker on Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:30 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Re: How to avoid the Work & Health Programme

Post by Non Deficere on Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:01 pm

Caker wrote:I feel a FOI coming on Wink


I think they are already in place! Smile
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Re: How to avoid the Work & Health Programme

Post by Caker on Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:31 pm

....Just had a quick look. I think info is being kept under wraps to a certain extent. I will continue to monitor.
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Re: How to avoid the Work & Health Programme

Post by ABC on Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:18 pm

From my reading of the currently available FoIs on this subject https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/search/%22work%20health%20programme%22/all  it seems pretty clear cut that if you are LTU (long-term unemployed) then there is no absolutely certain get-out-clause to avoid being allocated to the WHP. An LTU claimant is one that's been continuously claiming for 24 months or more so I'd imagine that would apply to most people on this forum.

The only potential get out I see at the moment is that the guidance says that the claimant must have a good chance of obtaining work in the first year and if you are LTU then that in itself would be an indication that you'd be unlikely to find work within a year and thus is a possible argument against referral. Best of luck trying to argue the point with the DWP though!  pale

And of course the selection procedure is open to abuse because the form that the work coach fills in to refer a claimant into the randomised selection process can be fiddled by the work coach to ensure the claimant is referred to the random selection part of the process. So it's only a pseudo-random process in practice. Evil or Very Mad
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Re: How to avoid the Work & Health Programme

Post by Non Deficere on Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:48 pm

In every successful case I have been involved with the complainant/appellant has been able to out-maneuverer DWP by, proposing a plan that was more beneficial to them than the provision/scheme on offer.

You can only do this if you know everything about the the policy/scheme (prior information requirement) as well as the DWP's rationale/evidence before accepting a mandatory notice.

The assessment/readiness tool forms part of DWP's evidence, but is it objective and accurate?
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Re: How to avoid the Work & Health Programme

Post by Caker on Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:30 pm

I have not yet found the assessment tool in any FOI. I will continue to monitor.
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Re: How to avoid the Work & Health Programme

Post by Non Deficere on Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:59 am

Caker wrote:I have not yet found the assessment tool in any FOI. I will continue to monitor.

Here you are Caker:

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/433524/response/1070248/attach/3/6.WC%20actions%20DCAMS.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1


Edit:

Further info...

Work and Health programme provider guidance

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/work-and-health-programme-provider-guidance

Not had a chance to read it yet.


Last edited by Non Deficere on Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:53 am; edited 2 times in total
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Re: How to avoid the Work & Health Programme

Post by El-dudeareno on Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:14 pm

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/433524/response/1070248/attach/3/6.WC%20actions%20DCAMS.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1[/quote]

From the link you gave N-Def, could a claimant get a copy of there "DCAMS" report either by SAR's or DART from the JCP. As I gather the JCP staff fill in this form. So you could challenge what they have typed into this, as they are judge and jury in many cases?  pale
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Re: How to avoid the Work & Health Programme

Post by ABC on Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:08 pm

El-dudeareno you can get it by SAR. But the real question is when do you ask for it? The referrals aren't supposed to start until beginning of April but when are the work coaches actually going to fill in the DCAMS form?

Presumably there's no point asking before they've actually done it but if you ask too late then you'll already have been referred and submitting a SAR at that point means you'll be a few weeks into actually attending the WHP before you get a response!

Ideally all this info is needed prior to the referral so you have a fighting chance of actually contesting it. Once you've been referred, even if it was an inappropriate referral, it'll be a darn sight harder to get removed from the WHP.

Also, as I mentioned above, the referral process is open to abuse becausee the work coach is the only one who fills in the DCAMS form and we all know how unbiased they are don't we?
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Re: How to avoid the Work & Health Programme

Post by ABC on Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:31 pm

Non Deficere wrote:Brief summary of what I/we know to date:
The assessment/suitability tool is completed in secret after the potential participant has left the interview.

I haven't seen any info that there will even be an interview with the claimant linked to the filling in of the DCAMS referral form by the work coach?
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Re: How to avoid the Work & Health Programme

Post by Caker on Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:56 pm

DCAMS?

I have not seen that term. What is it please?
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Re: How to avoid the Work & Health Programme

Post by Non Deficere on Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:00 am

ABC wrote:
Non Deficere wrote:Brief summary of what I/we know to date:
The assessment/suitability tool is completed in secret after the potential participant has left the interview.

I haven't seen any info that there will even be an interview with the claimant linked to the filling in of the DCAMS referral form by the work coach?

Preparing for readiness and scoring questions
1. Once the potential participant has left the interview, you must:

Step Action
1. Leave the interview open on LMS
2. Access DCAMS via the icon on your desktop
3. Input the National Insurance Number (NIN ).
4. Access the ‘Person Record’ (if one is held) or create a new
record (if one isn’t held)

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/433524/response/1070248/attach/3/6.WC%20actions%20DCAMS.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1



ABC wrote:From my reading of the currently available FoIs on this subject https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/search/%22work%20health%20programme%22/all  it seems pretty clear cut that if you are LTU (long-term unemployed) then there is no absolutely certain get-out-clause to avoid being allocated to the WHP. An LTU claimant is one that's been continuously claiming for 24 months or more so I'd imagine that would apply to most people on this forum.

Breaks of less than 12 weeks may impact on the 24 months calculation.   Information has been requested.

Edit:
There is a reference to linking in the W&HP provider guidance.
Long Term Unemployed Participants
12. Participants will be deemed to be Long Term Unemployed when they
reach the following point in their benefit claim:
• JSA Participants at 24 months including linking periods;
• UC Participants who start in the Intensive Work Search Regime
(IWSR) and are in the IWSR when they reach 24 months
discounting change of circumstances within the 24 month period;
and
• Participants migrated to Universal Credit Full Service (UCFS) from
legacy benefits will be considered when their time on legacy
benefits including linking rules and their time in the IWSR totals 24
months.

Some info regarding linking periods:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/654415/dmgch21.pdf

Further info to follow




Caker wrote:DCAMS?

I have not seen that term. What is it please?

Digital Claimant and Activity Messaging Service (DCAMS)

El-dudeareno wrote:https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/433524/response/1070248/attach/3/6.WC%20actions%20DCAMS.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1

From the link you gave N-Def, could a claimant get a copy of there "DCAMS" report either by SAR's or DART from the JCP. As I gather the JCP staff fill in this form. So you could challenge what they have typed into this, as they are judge and jury in many cases?  pale

By SAR. I would be inclined to have the SAR prepared so you can hand it in on the day of the assessment.

Example letter:

[Your full address]
[Phone number]
[The date]

[Name and address of the organisation]

Dear Sir or Madam

Subject access request: DMCAMS

[Your full name and address and any other details to help identify you and the information you want.]

Please supply the information about me I am entitled to under the Data Protection Act 1998 relating to:

My DMCAMS [dated] including all associated LMS data i.e. conversations, MORE box, Action Plans.

If you need any more information from me, or a fee, please let me know as soon as possible.

It may be helpful for you to know that a request for information under the Data Protection Act 1998 should be responded to within 40 days.

If you do not normally deal with these requests, please pass this letter to your Data Protection Officer. If you need advice on dealing with this request, the Information Commissioner’s Office can assist you and can be contacted on 0303 123 1113 or at ico.org.uk

Yours faithfully
[Signature]

https://ico.org.uk/for-the-public/personal-information/


Last edited by Non Deficere on Sat Feb 03, 2018 3:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: How to avoid the Work & Health Programme

Post by Absolut on Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:29 pm

ABC wrote:it seems pretty clear cut that if you are LTU (long-term unemployed) then there is no absolutely certain get-out-clause to avoid being allocated to the WHP. An LTU claimant is one that's been continuously claiming for 24 months or more so I'd imagine that would apply to most people on this forum.

What do they mean by "continuously" claiming, because I'm not sure. Is JSA to ESA and then back to JSA counted as continuous?








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Re: How to avoid the Work & Health Programme

Post by ABC on Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:48 pm

Non Deficere wrote:
ABC wrote:
Non Deficere wrote:Brief summary of what I/we know to date:
The assessment/suitability tool is completed in secret after the potential participant has left the interview.

I haven't seen any info that there will even be an interview with the claimant linked to the filling in of the DCAMS referral form by the work coach?

Preparing for readiness and scoring questions
1. Once the potential participant has left the interview, you must:

Step Action
1. Leave the interview open on LMS
2. Access DCAMS via the icon on your desktop
3. Input the National Insurance Number (NIN ).
4. Access the ‘Person Record’ (if one is held) or create a new
record (if one isn’t held)

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/433524/response/1070248/attach/3/6.WC%20actions%20DCAMS.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1


Thanks ND I missed that! Embarassed

I dare say there will be cases of this form being filled in without even referring to the claimant so that would be a temporary get out clause until they refer the claimant again and do it right by actually interviewing before referring.
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Re: How to avoid the Work & Health Programme

Post by ABC on Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:53 pm

Absolut wrote:
ABC wrote:it seems pretty clear cut that if you are LTU (long-term unemployed) then there is no absolutely certain get-out-clause to avoid being allocated to the WHP. An LTU claimant is one that's been continuously claiming for 24 months or more so I'd imagine that would apply to most people on this forum.

What do they mean by "continuously" claiming, because I'm not sure. Is JSA to ESA and then back to JSA counted as continuous?

Continuous in this context will mean any type of claim you've had that isn't separated by more than 12 weeks. So, for example, if you sign off JSA and then claim ESA eleven weeks later the linking rule means that's treated as a continuous claim despite the eleven week no claim break. I think the only absolutely bulletproof way to avoid the WHP is to sign off for more than 12 weeks before being referred if that's within the claimants means. I note on one of the FoI responses though that the Jobcentre has the final decision on who gets referred so I'm not sure if even that would necessarily be true. Perhaps they are able to refer no matter what the circumstances are? Mad
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